Narrow minded continue to inhibit minnow nations like Samoa

[james5000]

I am pretty sure Liam Messam is a maori and Rene Ranger would only qualify to play for Cook Islands i think.

I agree 100% that NZ's poaching rep is not as worthy as England's and Aussies.


Aussie steals many NZ rugby talents born, bred and developed in NZ. (Many actually leave to play rugby league)

England is the worst of the worst, half of their team were born, bred and developed in other countries weren't they?


As Nick said of the Current NZ Squad only Sivivatu arrived in NZ after he was 5 years old.


Zefrenchy all of those players you mentioned were products of NZ why should we feel guilty about selecting them? That's ridiculous haha

 

[TRF_Olyy]

England is the worst of the worst, half of their team were born, bred and developed in other countries weren't they?

No, 3 were (Hape, Flutey, Waldrom)
The other players born in a different country learnt their rugby in/came through the England system (Tuilagi, Corbisiero, Hartley, Doran-Jones) having moved here at a young age (ranging from 4 (Corbisiero) to 12 (Hartley)) - Hartley has an English mother as well

Mouritz Botha is an odd one as he moved to England at aged 20 or something, but then came through the England ranks playing amateur, then semi-pro then pro rugby, and hadn't played pro-rugby in SA, so it's like 50/50 with him
Same applies to Hendre Fourie

 

[nickdnz]

That's on the current squad. I think NZ is "guilty" of using players for only a few tests that they could have 'let' to other nations, just as Australia just did with Timani and had done with Samo a few years back. A few examples from recent years:
Benson Stanley (three tests last year, Samoa-eligible and is unlikely to get more caps for NZ)
Aled de Malmanche (5 caps in 2009, eligible to play for Wales)
Tamati Ellison and Mike Delany (1 cap in 2009, probably eligible to play for someone else...)

And probably a couple of new caps each year. I don't think NZ have bad intentions in doing so, but I can understand the frustration of, say, Fiji when they see a player that would do a lot of good for their team but that they cannot select because the guy has one cap for NZ four years ago... I think that is the problem, more than the Rokocoko or Sivivatu style cases.

If you read my post, you will actually see just how much New Zealand provides PI nations with quality players. Benson Stanley was the only option as 12, and he was born and educated in New Zealand, with his uncle a former All Black. What would you suggest, not pick players who want to be All Blacks, when they are on form? If they are born in New Zealand, how do you decide? Colour of skin? Or should you just pick the best squad with who is avalible? As for mentioning de Malmanche, his grandparents are fr*cking Welsh. I guess Waldrom is playing for England with his grandparents being Engliish, but it is an obserd reason not to select a player. He's actually a very good hooker. Then you mention Ellison (a Maori, who is only eligable for New Zealand through Junior All Blacks and New Zealand 7's) and Delany (?), all of whom I don't think are eligable for playing for anyone else. They are selected on form, if they aren't selected again it is because they don't have the form to be selected again. Why the heck does New Zealand have to provide the rest of the world with fr*cking rugby players?!

 

[james5000]

Dylan Hartley went to school with me in Rotorua when he was 16? I believe he learnt most of his skills over here. It's basically the same situation as Sivivatu who came to NZ at a similar age only Dylan has bloodlines to qualify for England

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm sure I read an interview that said he moved to England aged 12/13 - but then you'd know better than me actually knowing the guy :lol:

Wikipedia has him moving to England in 2000 as well :S


Either way, he played for England Schoolboys and various England age-grade (and has the English mother as well) so I've no qualms with him representing England

 

[james5000]

He was definitely still playing in Rotorua Boys 1st xv in 2001 he may have left just after then maybe 2001-2002ish I suppose so around 15-16.

He always made rep teams like BOP age grades, but i don't think any people predicted he would do this well. I'd almost guarantee he wouldn't have been an all black, he'd have struggled to play super rugby.

Liam Messam, Ruki Tipuna and Steven Setephano were the stars at the time. I think Mike Delaney was a few years earlier too.

Everyone expected big things from Liam

It says he was 16 in this article

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/s...s_hartley_defends_england_selection_1_2814008

But I suppose you can claim he was part of the english system if he says it himself

 

[psychic duck]

Now, do I want to bring up players from teir 3 nations England have? Lesley Vainikolo (born Nuku'alofa, Tonga), Manu Tuilagi (born Apia, Samoa), Delon Armitage (born San Fernando, Trinidad), Steffon Armitage (born San Fernando, Trinidad), Simon Shaw (Nairobi, Kenya)

Out of them, only Sivivatu moved here past the age of 10:

New Zealand: Jerome Kaino (Western Samoa), Ben Franks (Australia), Darren Witcombe (Australia), Steve Devine (Australia), Samual Harding (Australia), Joe Rokocoko (Fiji), Sitivini Sivivatu (Fiji), Sosone Anesi (Samoa), Jerry Collins (Samoa), Alama Ieremia (Samoa), Casey Laulala (Samoa), Chris Masoe (Samoa), Mils Muliaina (Samoa), John Schwalger (Samoa), Rodney So'oialo (Samoa), Isaia Toeava (Samoa), Andrew Mehrtens (South Africa), Greg Rawlinson (South Africa), Pita Alatini (Tonga), Sione Lauaki (Tonga), Saimone Taumoepeau (Tonga).

If we look at Samoa's current squad that was named to verse Australia, they have Paul Williams (born Auckland, New Zealand), Sailosi Tagicakibau (born Auckland, New Zealand), Kahn Fotuali'i (born Auckland, New Zealand), David Leo (born Dunedin, New Zealand), Kane Thompson (born Wellington, New Zealand), Anthony Perenise (born Porirua, New Zealand), Sakaria Taulafo (born Tasman, New Zealand), Tii Paulo (born Christchurch, New Zealand), Census Johnston (born Auckland, New Zealand), Filipo Lavea Levi (born Huntley, New Zealand).

I agree with you that there are a lot of Islanders in New Zealand and many of the list you name were educated in New Zealand so are not really poaches, but also there are loads more poached by the Sevens/Junior All Blacks teams too

but I still feel that the likes of Laulala, Masoe and Lauaki are currently wasted to international rugby and could be their respective nations best players

where's your source to find out the ages each player moved to New Zealand?

and with your point about the Samoa squad being born in NZ, I would ask you how many of those NZ born players would get even close to the All Blacks squad? none apart from maybe Fotuali'i

and how many Island born All Blacks would easily be in the nation of their birth's squad? all of the Island players would apart from maybe Anesi

That's on the current squad. I think NZ is "guilty" of using players for only a few tests that they could have 'let' to other nations, just as Australia just did with Timani and had done with Samo a few years back. A few examples from recent years:
Benson Stanley (three tests last year, Samoa-eligible and is unlikely to get more caps for NZ)
Aled de Malmanche (5 caps in 2009, eligible to play for Wales)
Tamati Ellison and Mike Delany (1 cap in 2009, probably eligible to play for someone else...)

And probably a couple of new caps each year. I don't think NZ have bad intentions in doing so, but I can understand the frustration of, say, Fiji when they see a player that would do a lot of good for their team but that they cannot select because the guy has one cap for NZ four years ago... I think that is the problem, more than the Rokocoko or Sivivatu style cases.

don't think you can have a go at NZ selecting players such as Benson Stanley if he was the best available at the time

I think that the proposed rule may have the complete opposite effect. If one change was allowed, you would have things like Alex Tuilagi playing for England; Caucau, Nalaga, Lovobalavu (and perhaps many other islanders), Tchale-Watchou and the two Georgian props whose names I can't spell playing for France, Fotouali'i playing for the AB in a couple of years and surely Scotland would manage to bring some one-time capped players from other nations somehow.
Just give the PI a real calendar of internationals and perhaps even some money to help them retain their players, but a change in eligibility rules would surely be bad for them.

this is true, I don't know the perfect system because although the IRB gets a lot of stick for stopping players with 20 minutes of the bench for the All Blacks playing for Samoa, that rule was introduced so NZ didn't take Caucau

 

[james5000]

Steve Devine i am sure he was older than 10 tbh, didn't he play aussie age grade?
Greg Rawlinson was definitely older too lol
I have met and spoken too Anesi (around 05ish) and he was a fob, no way he came before the age of 10, unless he just speaks samoan at home

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

If Zimbabwe wasn't in the toilet I imagine we could have seen a squad from them that could have competed for maybe the 10th/12th spot on the rankings;

1 Tendai 'the Beast' Mtawarira
2
3 Brian Mujati
4
5
6
7 David Pocock
8 Bobby Skinstad (only 35 still LOL, come out of retirement, Bobby!!)
9
10 Kenedy Tsimba
11 Takudza Ngwenya
12
13 Max Evans
14 Tonderai Chavanga
15 Thom Evans

A few players born in Zim now playing elsewhere that I know of. Add a few of their exciting 7's stars (particularly the loosies) and a few of their current squad and you've got a team I reckon.

 

[nickdnz]

Steve Devine i am sure he was older than 10 tbh, didn't he play aussie age grade?
Greg Rawlinson was definitely older too lol
I have met and spoken too Anesi (around 05ish) and he was a fob, no way he came before the age of 10, unless he just speaks samoan at home

I was talking about the PI players, you're right about Devine and Rawlinson.

I agree with you that there are a lot of Islanders in New Zealand and many of the list you name were educated in New Zealand so are not really poaches, but also there are loads more poached by the Sevens/Junior All Blacks teams too

but I still feel that the likes of Laulala, Masoe and Lauaki are currently wasted to international rugby and could be their respective nations best players

where's your source to find out the ages each player moved to New Zealand?

and with your point about the Samoa squad being born in NZ, I would ask you how many of those NZ born players would get even close to the All Blacks squad? none apart from maybe Fotuali'i

and how many Island born All Blacks would easily be in the nation of their birth's squad? all of the Island players would apart from maybe Anesi



don't think you can have a go at NZ selecting players such as Benson Stanley if he was the best available at the time



this is true, I don't know the perfect system because although the IRB gets a lot of stick for stopping players with 20 minutes of the bench for the All Blacks playing for Samoa, that rule was introduced so NZ didn't take Caucua

1. Yes, they are wasted to International Rugby. That is the choice they made when they left New Zealand knowing their selection policies. Carl Hayman, Byron Kelleher and Nick Evans are also wasted from International rugby. I guess they should be allowed to play for France and England. Keep in mind that players like Laulala have still played two more games than players like David Holwell, who has nearly 200 games between Wellington, Hurricanes and Northland.

2. It doesn't matter how many would get into the All Blacks. The players that Samoa have, have come up through the New Zealand rugby systems and have chosen to play for Samoa. The players who New Zealand have are the players who have come up through the New Zealand rugby system and chosen to play for New Zealand. All the players I have mentioned in the Samoa squad were even born in New Zealand. Great players aren't just born great, they become great through training. How has New Zealand taken away player from Samoa, when they only became great players in New Zealand? It's a little hard for many Englishmen to understand, when they just take talent from overseas who have already played professional rugby (and in some cases international rugby league) in a different country.

3. Total guess work. It had nothing to do with Caucaunibuca, however it was a general rule to stop multi-internationals and to keep players from the Tier 1 nations with their best players. Now it seems that it's not even fair for PI nations to keep their players, but they should take others as well.

 

[Thingimubob]

Tbf, I didnt have a clue that de Malmanche could've played for Wales, not as if the Welsh nation was in uproar about him playing for the All Blacks so that point doesn't really work...
The only player I find slightly dodgy is Shontayne Hape playing for England (partly because he's not that good and I'm sure that they have a better 12 somewhere) because he played Rugby League for New Zealand. Just doesnt seem right that up untill 2007 he was a New Zealander but 3 years later decides he's nglish in a different sport? My friend in uni has tried using the excuse that he's decided he's become English after playing so many years in both codes with Bradford and then Bath. If that was the case then why didnt he opt for England Rugby League while with Bradford?
Don't see New Zealand as poachers anyway, the vast majority of the players who could opt for another country have played all their rugby and been trained up in New Zealand. This is the same as Manu Tuilagi coming through the Tigers acadamy and Toby Faletau playing all his rugby in Wales.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

That's on the current squad. I think NZ is "guilty" of using players for only a few tests that they could have 'let' to other nations, just as Australia just did with Timani and had done with Samo a few years back. A few examples from recent years:
Benson Stanley (three tests last year, Samoa-eligible and is unlikely to get more caps for NZ)
Aled de Malmanche (5 caps in 2009, eligible to play for Wales)
Tamati Ellison and Mike Delany (1 cap in 2009, probably eligible to play for someone else...)

And probably a couple of new caps each year. I don't think NZ have bad intentions in doing so, but I can understand the frustration of, say, Fiji when they see a player that would do a lot of good for their team but that they cannot select because the guy has one cap for NZ four years ago... I think that is the problem, more than the Rokocoko or Sivivatu style cases.

Given some replies, I thought I should highlight that.

Now, take the case of Staleki Timani. He was born in Tonga and moved at some point to Australia. He was eligible to play for both and, some weeks ago, was in contention to be the fourth lock in the Australian RWC squad. Australia capped him and now he is ineligible to play for Tonga.
Now let's move 8 years into the future, with a fictional but perfectly possible scenario. Timani managed to get, between 2011 and 2013 only four caps and only against lesser teams. Given that he is not being chosen for the Wallabies, he decides to take a contract with Toulon starting in the 2013-2014 season. He obviously is a very good player so he has a lot of game time and develops very well as a player. When Tonga are selecting their squad for RWC 2019 they obviously think of Timani and resent the ARU because of those four caps that they gave him.

I think that is the kind of story that the Pacific nations have in mind when asking for this kind of rule change. Now, we must ask two questions:

1. Are these cases important enough to justify such a rule change?
2. What are the "unexpected" consequences this could bring? Wouldn't we be opening a Pandora's box? (see my post on the first page for my opinion on this)

On Hartley, from: http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/player/27818.html

[QUOTE][URL="http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/player/27818.html"]Hartley was introduced to England's age grade academies during a long holiday with cousins in Sussex. While there he came to the attention of Graham Smith of the Worcester Warriors academy and was persuaded to make his switch to England permanent.
http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/player/27818.htmlhttp://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/player/27818.htmlAt the time Hartley was playing as a loose-head prop, and finding opportunities limited due to the depth of talent in New Zealand he jumped at the chance to join the Premiership side's academy.
Hartley has represented England at U18, U-19 and U-21 level, where he provided cover for all three front row positions during the 2005 IRB World Championships in Argentina. His conversion to hooker came in 2005 when Budge Poutney, then director of rugby at Northampton, convinced him to move to Franklin's Gardens.
http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/player/27818.htmlhttp://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/player/27818.htmlhttp://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/player/27818.html[/QUOTE]
[/URL]

 

[Seaton]

If Zimbabwe wasn't in the toilet I imagine we could have seen a squad from them that could have competed for maybe the 10th/12th spot on the rankings;

1 Tendai 'the Beast' Mtawarira
2 Pieter Dixon
3 Brian Mujati
4
5
6 Scott Gray
7 David Pocock
8 Bobby Skinstad (only 35 still LOL, come out of retirement, Bobby!!)
9
10 Kenedy Tsimba
11 Takudza Ngwenya
12
13 Max Evans
14 Tonderai Chavanga
15 Thom Evans

A few players born in Zim now playing elsewhere that I know of. Add a few of their exciting 7's stars (particularly the loosies) and a few of their current squad and you've got a team I reckon.

Now for locks and a scrumhalf...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Now for locks and a scrumhalf...

1 Tendai 'the Beast' Mtawarira (South Africa)
2 Pieter Dixon (South Africa)
3 Brian Mujati (South Africa)
4 Andrew Rose (Scotland u19)
5 Scott Gray (Scotland)
6 Keenen Marais (New Zealand schoolboy)
7 David Pocock (Australia)
8 Bobby Skinstad (only 35 still LOL, come out of retirement, Bobby!!) (South Africa)
9 Matt Reid (England)
10 Kennedy Tsimba (South Africa uncapped)
11 Takudza Ngwenya (USA)
12 Nils Mordt (England)
13 Max Evans (Scotland)
14 Tonderai Chavanga (South Africa)
15 Thom Evans (Scotland)

With a little help from this article after a quick search. http://wezimbabwe.posterous.com/zimbabwe-rugby-sables-would-have-been-world-cI'd
Not too sure about playing the "Scottish" flankers out of position at lock but oh, well.. Shame on us; Scotland and South Africa. Best player went to Aus though.
I'd love to see another African team able to compete at the RWC. It'd be nice to have both Zim and Namibia there but I think Zim has greater potential as a rugby nation.

 

[Rhyer]

Oh dear. It's unfortunate you managed to highlight the only word you misspelled...

Regardless, I sympathise with Samoa, Fiji and Tonga, they do lose a whole host of talented players to the All Blacks every year. But changing the eligibility rules just isn't a long term solution to the problem. As the sides start to develop I think (or rather hope), we'll see more players sticking with their nation by blood, rather than a country that can offer a higher pay check.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7047554,00.html

''England flanker Hendre Fourie has hit back at critics who reckon that Martin Johnson has too many foreign-born players in his squad.

Johnson was criticised because 11 players in his 45-man preliminary World Cup squad were born overseas. ''

 

[psychic duck]

1 Tendai 'the Beast' Mtawarira (South Africa)
2 Pieter Dixon (South Africa)
3 Brian Mujati (South Africa)
4 Andrew Rose (Scotland u19)
5 Scott Gray (Scotland)
6 Keenen Marais (New Zealand schoolboy)
7 David Pocock (Australia)
8 Bobby Skinstad (only 35 still LOL, come out of retirement, Bobby!!) (South Africa)
9 Matt Reid (England)
10 Kennedy Tsimba (South Africa uncapped)
11 Takudza Ngwenya (USA)
12 Nils Mordt (England)
13 Max Evans (Scotland)
14 Tonderai Chavanga (South Africa)
15 Thom Evans (Scotland)

With a little help from this article after a quick search. http://wezimbabwe.posterous.com/zimbabwe-rugby-sables-would-have-been-world-cI'd
Not too sure about playing the "Scottish" flankers out of position at lock but oh, well.. Shame on us; Scotland and South Africa. Best player went to Aus though.
I'd love to see another African team able to compete at the RWC. It'd be nice to have both Zim and Namibia there but I think Zim has greater potential as a rugby nation.

Skinstad, Thom Evans and Tsimba are all retired now

but some players you could add here ...

Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs reserve number 8)
Marco Mama (Bristol reserve number 8)
Michael Passaportis (Griquas reserve lock)
Garth Ziegler (Bayonne reserve centre/wing/full back)
Dave Denton (Edinburgh utility forward number 8/flanker/lock, Zimbabwe born, SA educated, in Scotland RWC preliminary squad)

not the greatest players but are at least training with pro squads, Denton managed to get in the Scotland squad though

Given some replies, I thought I should highlight that.

Now, take the case of Staleki Timani. He was born in Tonga and moved at some point to Australia. He was eligible to play for both and, some weeks ago, was in contention to be the fourth lock in the Australian RWC squad. Australia capped him and now he is ineligible to play for Tonga.
Now let's move 8 years into the future, with a fictional but perfectly possible scenario. Timani managed to get, between 2011 and 2013 only four caps and only against lesser teams. Given that he is not being chosen for the Wallabies, he decides to take a contract with Toulon starting in the 2013-2014 season. He obviously is a very good player so he has a lot of game time and develops very well as a player. When Tonga are selecting their squad for RWC 2019 they obviously think of Timani and resent the ARU because of those four caps that they gave him.

I think that is the kind of story that the Pacific nations have in mind when asking for this kind of rule change. Now, we must ask two questions:

1. Are these cases important enough to justify such a rule change?
2. What are the "unexpected" consequences this could bring? Wouldn't we be opening a Pandora's box? (see my post on the first page for my opinion on this)

Timani was actually in the Tonga World Cup preliminary squad before being named in the Australia squad

he also has signed to play for the Canon Eagles in Japan for next season, so will be unavailable after the World Cup and is doomed to become another Samo...

...but probably without the comeback

 

[DariusLovehall]

Ignorance

That's on the current squad. I think NZ is "guilty" of using players for only a few tests that they could have 'let' to other nations, just as Australia just did with Timani and had done with Samo a few years back. A few examples from recent years:
Benson Stanley (three tests last year, Samoa-eligible and is unlikely to get more caps for NZ)
Aled de Malmanche (5 caps in 2009, eligible to play for Wales)
Tamati Ellison and Mike Delany (1 cap in 2009, probably eligible to play for someone else...)

And probably a couple of new caps each year. I don't think NZ have bad intentions in doing so, but I can understand the frustration of, say, Fiji when they see a player that would do a lot of good for their team but that they cannot select because the guy has one cap for NZ four years ago... I think that is the problem, more than the Rokocoko or Sivivatu style cases.

What a Load of Crap!

It is ignorance like this which reinforces the massive misconceptions surrounding NZ Rugby ....

You have stated, and i quote (probably could have play for someone else)
Well you could go thru the rugby squads of any of the top 5 or 6 countries and say the same thing as most people have some kind of mixed blood you 'Genius'

Aled de Malmanche and Tamati Ellison are proud Maori's who have represented NZ Maori and have been fringe All Blacks - do you really think that they entertained the idea of
playing for Wales or anyone else growing up? :/
Benson Stanley is as kiwi as they come - his Uncle Joe is an All Black legend of the 1980's and his cousin Jeremy - Joe's son is another one test All Black... he has cousins in the NRL eligible for The Kwis as well
The Stanley family are proud kiwis...


You do NOT know what you are talking about - Aled de Malmanche is a proud Maori - he is a born and bred kiwi...
Benson Stanley doesn't want to play for Samoa he is a kiwi - born and bred and still a fringe All Black who could represent NZ again in future.
Tamati Ellison is a born and bred Maori boy from Porirua who i happen to know - He doesn't want to play for any other country.
Mike Delany is a kiwi - get it!

All you have done is found a few players with not many caps and without any idea of who these players actually are you have made up some crap about NZ not 'letting' them play for other countries....
thats just bad form aye.

You my friend are mis-informed and ignorant.

 

[Rhyer]

Wasn't Benson Stanley also injury cover as both Mcalister and Nonu were injured? Not like they just capped him for the hell of it. He played against Ireland, Wales and Australia from memory.

 

[smartcooky]

What a Load of Crap!

It is ignorance like this which reinforces the massive misconceptions surrounding NZ Rugby ....

You have stated, and i quote (probably could have play for someone else)
Well you could go thru the rugby squads of any of the top 5 or 6 countries and say the same thing as most people have some kind of mixed blood you 'Genius'

Aled de Malmanche and Tamati Ellison are proud Maori's who have represented NZ Maori and have been fringe All Blacks - do you really think that they entertained the idea of
playing for Wales or anyone else growing up? :/
Benson Stanley is as kiwi as they come - his Uncle Joe is an All Black legend of the 1980's and his cousin Jeremy - Joe's son is another one test All Black... he has cousins in the NRL eligible for The Kwis as well
The Stanley family are proud kiwis...


You do NOT know what you are talking about - Aled de Malmanche is a proud Maori - he is a born and bred kiwi...
Benson Stanley doesn't want to play for Samoa he is a kiwi - born and bred and still a fringe All Black who could represent NZ again in future.
Tamati Ellison is a born and bred Maori boy from Porirua who i happen to know - He doesn't want to play for any other country.
Mike Delany is a kiwi - get it!

All you have done is found a few players with not many caps and without any idea of who these players actually are you have made up some crap about NZ not 'letting' them play for other countries....
thats just bad form aye.

You my friend are mis-informed and ignorant.

THIS!!!!

I have been resident in NZ since 1960 (at age 5).
I am English born.
My father was English as was my paternal grandfather
My mother was Swiss as was my maternal grandfather
My maternal grandmother was French
My paternal grandmother was Welsh

Therefore, I was eligible to play for New Zealand, England, France, Switzerland or Wales.

Had I ever been selected to play for New Zealand, zefrenchy's logic would be that the NZRU are bunch of poaching ******** who prevented me playing for some/any/all of the other countries I was eligible for.

As you say Darius, what an effing "Genius"

 

[DariusLovehall]

Exactly...Benson was given a chance and didn't make the position is own ... When someone gets a shot it is up to them to take that position - think Zinny vs Buck, Kelleher vs Marshall or Franks vs Tialata ...
If someone gets a shot and doesn't quite make the position their own then it is what it is ....