Narrow minded continue to inhibit minnow nations like Samoa

[AfakasiAssasin]

As I've said before, the players who are wanted by their countries of bith (or their parents birth), are usually the product of an entire life spent living in, being educated in and learning and playing rugby in New Zealand. They are New Zealanders, providing they didn't move to New Zealand to play professional rugby (which as I've pointed out, there are no All Blacks except Sivivatu who have not spent a large majority of their lives in New Zealand). Poaching players is taking talented rugby players out of the Islands and putting them in the All Blacks. What the New Zealand rugby system does is train rugby players of mixed ethnicities from an early age. Case and point AfaksiAssasin, if you are born in Samoa, move here at three years old, play rugby for Wellington College, join OBU, get selected for Wellington U19, New Zealand U20, Wellington Lions, The Hurricanes and then the All Blacks, have you been stolen as a rugby player for Samoa? Of course not.

I get ya. I guess I mean if a player is born in the Islands and only moves over to New Zealand (or anywhere else) to play his professional rugby, turns down the offer to play for their national team but instead chooses to pledge their allegiance to the country they moved over to play their Professional career. I understand and appreciate those who are born and then move over at a very young age whose allegiance is to their adoptive countries. I see nothing wrong with that and I don't consider that poaching.

 

[Amobokoboko]

I also think that when you arrive in NZ or AUS as a young teenager and you play domestic footie and then you get an invitation of the national side, to train, develop and learn from the best. Most people would take that offer. If at the end you only end up with a couple of caps, well that's bad luck. I don't think it would stimulate youngster if there national side would exist out of ex-AB's who were dumped as they couldn't handle the level.

 

[smartcooky]

The big differance though is that New Zealand and to some extent Australia are getting most of the cream of the crop of players who are eligible for the Pacific islands whilst the P.I nations mostly have to pick off the scraps that are willing to put their hand up and play for us.

So, how many of the current All Blacks squad were.....

1. Born in Samoa)
AND
2. Grew up in Samoa, coming though their development system
AND
2. Played rugby in Samoa as an adult

ANSWER = ZERO

Now reverse the criteria, how many of the current Samoa Squad were...

1. Born in New Zealand
AND
2. Grew up in New Zealand, coming though their development system
AND
2. Played Rugby in New Zealand as an adult

ANSWER = Unsure. Some say about half the team

so, who is biggest poacher then?

 

[AfakasiAssasin]

So, how many of the current All Blacks squad were

1. Born in one of the three Pacific Island (Samoa, Tonga or Fiji
AND
2. Grew up in that Pacific Island, coming though their development system
AND
2. Played rugby in that Pacific Island as an adult

ANSWER = ZERO

Now reverse the criteria, how many of the current Samoa Squad


1. Born in New Zealand
AND
2. Grew up in New Zealand, coming though their development system
AND
2. Played Rugby in New Zealand as an adult

ANSWER = PLENTY


So, who is biggest poacher then?

As I stated The big difference though is that New Zealand and to some extent Australia are getting most of the cream of the crop of players who are eligible for the Pacific islands whilst the P.I nations mostly have to pick off the scraps that are willing to put their hand up and play for us. I'm not necessarily saying that the majority of players are poached but look at how many P.I eligible players there is whose allegiance is not to any of the P.I nations. I understand and appreciate those who are born and then move over at a very young age whose allegiance is to their adoptive countries. I see nothing wrong with that and I don't consider that poaching. To me poaching is taking players that are WANTED by the country of birth and where you were raised but elect to play elsewhere. Most of the players that turn out for the P.I nations are UNWANTED at international level by countries such as New Zealand and Australia. With that in consideration the only player currently in a P.I team who I think could be considered as 'poached' would be Kahn Fotuali'i.

 

[Shaggy]

I agree with you that there are a lot of Islanders in New Zealand and many of the list you name were educated in New Zealand so are not really poaches, but also there are loads more poached by the Sevens/Junior All Blacks teams too

but I still feel that the likes of Laulala, Masoe and Lauaki are currently wasted to international rugby and could be their respective nations best players

where's your source to find out the ages each player moved to New Zealand?

and with your point about the Samoa squad being born in NZ, I would ask you how many of those NZ born players would get even close to the All Blacks squad? none apart from maybe Fotuali'i

and how many Island born All Blacks would easily be in the nation of their birth's squad? all of the Island players would apart from maybe Anesi



don't think you can have a go at NZ selecting players such as Benson Stanley if he was the best available at the time



this is true, I don't know the perfect system because although the IRB gets a lot of stick for stopping players with 20 minutes of the bench for the All Blacks playing for Samoa, that rule was introduced so NZ didn't take Caucau

Yep, currently only kahn would probably be wanted by the ABs, However, if the proposed rule changes came into fruition, you could quite easily see what happened after the 1991 world cup happening, with the likes of Frank Bunce and Stephen Bachop making the All Blacks, on the strength of their performances for Manu Samoa.

... Yes, they'd pickup the one test wonders, such as Anesi, and the past their bests, such as Toutai Kefu, and perhaps Tana Umaga, but they run the risk of becoming trial teams for the tier one nations, and having a high turn over of younger talent as a result.

 

[AfakasiAssasin]

Poaching is when players brought up (as a junior) by a rugby nation, but end up playing test level for a different rugby nation due to silly eligibility rules. Which is the opposite of what you said. I might happen to be born in Antarctica, but if i play rugby in Australia my whole life and end up playing for the Wallabies, i am not being "poached" from Antarctica's rugby system.

Uuuum...thats what I said and what I meant (?). You were born in a country and you were raised there. You then go to another country to play your professional rugby then the country you were born and raised wants you in their national team but instead your allegiance is to the country where you are now plying your trade. If you are unwanted its not poaching but if you are wanted than it is.

 

[ACT1NUP]

poaching, pppfffttttt. I hate that word. No-one has ever been poached in the history of rugby. Players are often eligable for more than 1 country, it's up to them who they play for. Not the unions/management/sponsers. If people have a probelm with players playing for the 'wrong country' (in their own opinion) hit them up about it. ABs have had a fair few Islanders, but that is expected. We have more living here than in the islands themselves!

 

[AfakasiAssasin]

poaching, pppfffttttt. I hate that word. No-one has ever been poached in the history of rugby. Players are often eligable for more than 1 country, it's up to them who they play for. Not the unions/management/sponsers. If people have a probelm with players playing for the 'wrong country' (in their own opinion) hit them up about it. ABs have had a fair few Islanders, but that is expected. We have more living here than in the islands themselves!

Your right, it is ultimately up to the players where they choose to play and pledge their allegiance to. My only argument is ideally I would like the IRB to flex the current eligibility laws that state the one country for life so that tier 1 eligible players can switch to tier 2 if they choose to but not the other way around. I see this change would benifeit greatly to the P.I nations becoming stronger. Realistically I don't see this happening any time soon as this has been brought up numerous times but the laws still remain the same.

 

[Shaggy]

poaching, pppfffttttt. I hate that word. No-one has ever been poached in the history of rugby. Players are often eligable for more than 1 country, it's up to them who they play for. Not the unions/management/sponsers. If people have a probelm with players playing for the 'wrong country' (in their own opinion) hit them up about it. ABs have had a fair few Islanders, but that is expected. We have more living here than in the islands themselves!

Exactly, if a player is eligible for more than one country, they get ONE choice as to who THEY want to play for ... like all players, if they only get one test, well, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

The best way for other nations to assist the Pacific Island teams IMO, is to keep the domestic competitions open to their players, and not place restrictions like "must be eligible for the Wallabies" on the players

 

[smartcooky]

The best way for other nations to assist the Pacific Island teams IMO, is to keep the domestic competitions open to their players, and not place restrictions like "must be eligible for the Wallabies" on the players

 

[Peat]

I hear what your saying, but to me poaching is taking players that are WANTED by the country of birth but elect to play elsewhere. Most of the players that turn out for the P.I nations are UNWANTED at international level by countries such as New Zealand and Australia. What you got to also take into consideration is the only thing to play for when you play for the Pacific Islands is pure pride. There is no money playing for the Pacific islands with alot of players having to PAY out of their OWN pockets in order to play. Poaching to me is having talent who are born in a country and are wanted by their national team but CHOOSE to turn out elsewhere that they are eligible. With that in consideration the only player currently in a P.I team who I think could be considered as 'poached' would be Kahn Fotuali'i.

Fair enough. I disagree with your definition, although I do like it as all of a sudden England are completely free from accusations of poaching. Incidentally, I think such a definition would probably make Ireland the poachiest country around...

I think I just like saying poachiest tbh.

 

[big ginger 8]

Fair enough. I disagree with your definition, although I do like it as all of a sudden England are completely free from accusations of poaching. Incidentally, I think such a definition would probably make Ireland the poachiest country around...

I think I just like saying poachiest tbh.

Do you mean the Republic's football team cause as far as I can see all of Ireland's players are Irish and mostly play in Ireland.

 

[Peat]

Do you mean the Republic's football team cause as far as I can see all of Ireland's players are Irish and mostly play in Ireland.

Richardt Strauss is being lined up to play for Ireland and has turned down a Springboks call-up while in Ireland to stay eligble. Jared Payne is on the cusp of the All Blacks, but will instead be going to Ireland for three years, with the probable expectation of being capped should he live up to his rep. I appreciate they're not there yet, but its hard to find clearer examples of one nation targeting players from another nation whom that other nation wish to keep. Not like either player has Irish ties.

Plus Wales would probably have preferred to keep the good Ruddock and Maguire, you've got a whole host of English born players on the fringes of the squad/in the Wolfhounds (i.e. McCarthy, Tuohy, Fitzpatrick), Boss was born in NZ (and turned down a NZ call-up to instead play for Ireland, or so I'm told), Court was born in Australia and so on. Given Ireland's historic levels of immigration and so on, its all fair enough, but it can still be construed as poaching... and the project player thing is nothing less than bare-faced, shameless poaching.

 

[Draggs]

Maguire- probably not.
Ruddock- Don't know, we have Lydiate improving and have poached Pretorius as well.

 

[big ginger 8]

The younger Ruddock was born here and both spent a good amount of time here as their father was coaching here. Also apparently Maguire is a pussy and probably won't be capped. The guys on the Wolfhounds probably wouldn't be capped for their native teams so their not really wanted.

I see what you're saying about the project players though but isn't there a rule that each province is only allowed one on their books until they're capped. Mostly it's just for frontrowers because we're a nation of 13 stone G.A.A. players.

 

[Peat]

You're correct on the project players, but a total of 4 project players is still 4 more than any other country has (except for Australia). And how many of the exiles are wanted by their home countries is always debatable... personally, I think Tuohy wouldn't have looked out of place in the most recent England squad, but that doesn't mean Johnson wanted him, f'instance. And I know Ruddock was born in Ireland, just received most of his rugby education in Wales.

Tbh, you can find accusations of poaching to lay against most teams. With the exception of three year residency specials, its mainly ********, but can be fun to go on about. And sometimes reveals interesting oddities, such as Ireland's shopping for forwards abroad (as you elude to): you can create a fairly decent pack out of Exiles/projects playing in Ireland... I think you'd get a grand total of two backs who'd fit the criteria. And stuff.

 

[Seaton]

Just thought I'd say that I feel there should be some sort of clause that covers extreme circumstances, that would allow a player to play for another country.

Such as if a former Zim player got chased out of Zim during the farm raids and such, or other xenophobic/ racial/ political/ etc forms of oppression make it impossible to play for their 'former' country, and then you get other circumstances, like what if Tendai Mtwarira had his application for SA citizenship declined? He would no longer be able to play international rugby, not ofany wrong choice or such, but simply because of new legalities and rules regarding eligibility which he could not forsee

And, going to other less likely circumstances, what happens when a country splits, and two unions are formed? What if a union were to be disbanded, due to something strange like an island country 'sinking'/ other natural disaster.

I lay claim to being the most diverse TRF member, being elligible for 6 countries ( Scotland, SA, Germany, Zambia, Zimbabwe and unfortunately England). Who can top that?

 

[jm1206]

Taking them at a young age

Dont players who look to be stars in years to come(ages like 8 years old plus) get taking over from other island to NZ and then developt as well as posssible and thats how they are so good aswell? i know they get taking at older ages to but what about younger ages? im just wondering for information

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Neither of those things are true...

 

[ranger]

Just thought I'd say that I feel there should be some sort of clause that covers extreme circumstances, that would allow a player to play for another country.

Such as if a former Zim player got chased out of Zim during the farm raids and such, or other xenophobic/ racial/ political/ etc forms of oppression make it impossible to play for their 'former' country, and then you get other circumstances, like what if Tendai Mtwarira had his application for SA citizenship declined? He would no longer be able to play international rugby, not ofany wrong choice or such, but simply because of new legalities and rules regarding eligibility which he could not forsee

And, going to other less likely circumstances, what happens when a country splits, and two unions are formed? What if a union were to be disbanded, due to something strange like an island country 'sinking'/ other natural disaster.

I lay claim to being the most diverse TRF member, being elligible for 6 countries ( Scotland, SA, Germany, Zambia, Zimbabwe and unfortunately England). Who can top that?

Well i'm eligible for New Zealand so.. There we go.