[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] South Africa vs. England (16/06/2018)

[Leonormous Boozer]

Loving this assessment this is the same setup that we're back to back European champions as well as premierships champions and narrowly lost last season, I don't think you can base their recent dip in form solely on that.....

But in that game that axis was utterly outclassed both on and off the ball against an international standard three quarter line. They were neither quick enough to attack them nor defend them. Farrell at 10 will work if England are dominant elsewhere, he's really not a good 10 on the back foot, and if England are dominant Barritt becomes very redundant and will only get exposed at international level like he was against a 35 year old Isa Nacewa with Ringrose outside him.

 

[Every Time Ref]

No point being the fittest team in the world if all it means is you can infringe with more intensity in the 75th minute

Excellently put.

Also anyone suggesting Brad Barrit is the answer is definitely not asking the right question

 

[Jimbo]

Okay fair enough we start with Cipriani do we win the game? Nope Do we even lose by less? Possibly but unlikely.

This such an annoying conversation about area where it's like number 99 of our 99 problems.

Not entirely sure how you can put such a low priority on your no 10?

Can I borrow your crystal ball, you seem to predict with such certainty, I can only assume you have one?

The difference is Cips can spark some magic from no where, really raise the tempo and I would say in recent seasons is defensively more solid, he can have a slightly hot head but based on Fords stitching Brown up with that hospital ball isn't exactly composed under preasure....

 

[ncurd]

Not entirely sure how you can put such a low priority on your no 10?

Can I borrow your crystal ball, you seem to predict with such certainty, I can only assume you have one?

The difference is Cips can spark some magic from no where, really raise the tempo and I would say in recent seasons is defensively more solid, he can have a slightly hot head but based on Fords stitching Brown up with that hospital ball isn't exactly composed under preasure....

Its not that I don't value my 10 my point is it's a change that won't win any games.

 

[Jimbo]

But in that game that axis was utterly outclassed both on and off the ball against an international standard three quarter line. They were neither quick enough to attack them nor defend them. Farrell at 10 will work if England are dominant elsewhere, he's really not a good 10 on the back foot, and if England are dominant Barritt becomes very redundant and will only get exposed at international level like he was against a 35 year old Isa Nacewa with Ringrose outside him.

So just to clarify a couple of seasons of English premiership domination and European dominated can tell us less about an Axis than a single game?

 

[McTallshort]

But in that game that axis was utterly outclassed both on and off the ball against an international standard three quarter line. They were neither quick enough to attack them nor defend them. Farrell at 10 will work if England are dominant elsewhere, he's really not a good 10 on the back foot, and if England are dominant Barritt becomes very redundant and will only get exposed at international level like he was against a 35 year old Isa Nacewa with Ringrose outside him.

Is this tread going irish already...

 

[Jimbo]

Its not that I don't value my 10 my point is it's a change that won't win any games.

Probably isn't one single change that will fix it surely it's more of a combination of tweaks\changes.

 

[ncurd]

Wholesale changes never work....what needs to be done is players need to learn some discipline and be coached the breakdown properly. That's all it's not bloody rocket science these arent bad players they playing extremely poorly as a team.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think implementing something like every penalty a player gives away they do 30 minutes intense fitness the next day would go a long way to solving it.

 

[KanyeWest]

It's the same answer every time though. He's apologized now anyway

I don't like her as an interviewer to be honest, the way she worded her questions to Jones was a bit OTT for me. Some will say they deserve it with the form they're in but the way she worded her Q's was in a way that was asking for him to bite IMO. We're struggling at the minute but I don't like it when they question people's character individually, not in a team sport anyway.

 

[ncurd]

God I hate Jonny Wilkinson sometimes he makes every Englishman think the game starts and ends at 10.

 

[Jimbo]

Wholesale changes never work....what needs to be done is players need to learn some discipline and be coached the breakdown properly. That's all it's not bloody rocket science these arent bad players they playing extremely poorly as a team.

Couldn't agree more, just to clarify I wasnt suggesting whole sale, I do wonder if over coaching, intensive Training and Lions hang over, changes to the breakdown this season are all contributing factors.

 

[Jimbo]

God I hate Jonny Wilkinson sometimes he makes every Englishman think the game starts and ends at 10.

It does to a degree he didn't take a backwards step get him in any drop goal/penalty oppertunity he will take it when it counts, we don't have that now.

 

[RedruthRFC]

To be honest until Baxter develops a plan B he can't really have the job. I'd choose Deano at Falcons out of current premiership DoR/coaches.

The RFU may all be pickled in gin and tonic, but I'm pretty sure a few of them will still remember bloodgate.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The RFU may all be pickled in gin and tonic, but I'm pretty sure a few of them will still remember bloodgate.

Eat the blazers.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Wilkinson also had the greatest English pack ever in front of him, and the biggest european pack with Toulon.
Falcons where good, but hardly anything to scream about even with him at 10.

The RFU may all be pickled in gin and tonic, but I'm pretty sure a few of them will still remember bloodgate.

Deano isn't even a coach he is a man manger if he was to have a job with the RFU it would be someone like Ryan's job.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

So just to clarify a couple of seasons of English premiership domination and European dominated can tell us less about an Axis than a single game?

It definitely tells more than the Premiership where there is no international class three quarter line.

Europe? We'll take a closer case study and go game by game.

Did Clermont 2017 have an international class three quarter line? Lopez - Lamerat - Rougerie... No.
Did Munster 2017? Far from it.
Glasgow? Russell - Horne - Dunbar. Close but not really.
Toulon? Trinh Duc - Nonu - Carraro. No.
Giteau - Nonu - Basta. Yeah 10-3 win, narrowest of the campaign and they really struggled to open Toulon up.

2016
Racing - Carter - Dumarou - Goosen. No.
Wasps - no.
Saints - no.
Ulster/Oyannax/Toulouse - no.

So, in conclusion, they met one international class three quarter line while dominating Europe, they met one in that match against Leinster. QED - that game tells us as much about how they'll do at international level. How'd they get on over those 160 mins? Not great...

Is this tread going irish already...

No babe ttyl. xx

 

[Jockstap]

Farrell at 10?! Who chose to keep going for the corner when there was loads of time and not take 3 points? Who stropped like a 5 year old at the ref? Who managed to **** up a simple pass to Daly and give SA an attacking scrum? Who was so busy pushing an SA player to prove he was hard that he left a huge gap. The man's brain is are gravy!

I'd be losing my mind too if I were the only England player that looks like they even give a ****. He needs to be at 10 but I agree someone else should take the captaincy.

 

[Jimbo]

It definitely tells more than the Premiership where there is no international class three quarter line.

Europe? We'll take a closer case study and go game by game.

Did Clermont 2017 have an international class three quarter line? Lopez - Lamerat - Rougerie... No.
Did Munster 2017? Far from it.
Glasgow? Russell - Horne - Dunbar. Close but not really.
Toulon? Trinh Duc - Nonu - Carraro. No.
Giteau - Nonu - Basta. Yeah 10-3 win, narrowest of the campaign and they really struggled to open Toulon up.

2016
Racing - Carter - Dumarou - Goosen. No.
Wasps - no.
Saints - no.
Ulster/Oyannax/Toulouse - no.

So, in conclusion, they met one international class three quarter line while dominating Europe, they met one in that match against Leinster. QED - that game tells us as much about how they'll do at international level. How'd they get on over those 160 mins? Not great...

No babe ttyl. xx

And Leinster strugge to open up Racing in the final does that make us question their backs?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

And Leinster strugge to open up Racing in the final does that make us question their backs?

Lack of penetration in midfield is widely regarded as Ireland's biggest weakness, defensively there's no issues.

Strawman arguments generally sound good in your head until rebutted!