[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] South Africa vs. England (16/06/2018)

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ford's got 46 caps. The fact we're still having this debate at all says it all.

 

[Which Tyler]

Everyone targets Ford how often has that targeting actually led to a try or a penalty?

Once that I can think of - when Mike first told George to go high in the tackle and prevent the offload on favour of going low and reducing the territory loss.
Nathan Hughes made hay that day.

 

[Pom in Exile]

Yup. As soon as I read that he's in charge, I immediately become angered and I know I will feel frustrated all throughout the test.

Welcome to the world of an England fan...from last Saturday.

 

[sharkfan]

Hey England! You should be happy!! Romain Poite is the referee for this match

Seriously?? Can't we escape from this incompetent fool?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Poite is a good ref, one of the best.

 

[SomeOke]

Poite is a good ref, one of the best.

He's our Barnes to the Kiwis.
Our Joubert to the French.

No-one will ever convince me this guy knows how to ref a rugby game.

 

[spartan32]

The Ford debates and interesting one. Yes he does bleed meters on defence, and yes his tackling technique leaves a lot to be desired, but given his size I'm not sure what else he can do against some of the giants that come
Rumbling down his channel. If he goes low he'll probably just get bounced off. At least he hangs on in there.

The question I suppose is whether his attacking contribution outweighs his defensive issues. And in any event is there another 10 that could do any better in defence? The only one I can think of is Faz and I don't think he offers as much in attack. Cips is better with ball in hand but the working relationship between Ford and the other more established England backs i would suggest is pretty invaluable. That being said I would really like to see Cips get another decent run out at 10 for England, but I can't see it happening unless injuries take hold.

So bottom line seems to be, yes he struggles in defence somewhat mostly due to his size, but what he offers in attack and understanding of other England players makes up for it and they're aren't any viable replacements. So Ford it is and I think we probably all just need to accept it and move on.

In any event I tend to agree that the reason for the loss had little to do with Ford (although he needs to work on his game management) and as already stated many times a ludicrous penalty count and lack of commitment from the forwards at the breakdown and contact area generally played a big part. The problem I foresee is in trying to get the pack more stuck in at the breakdown we will end up giving away even more penalties, or we try to address the penalties but then become even more useless at the breakdown. Itoje is a good example of this. I have heard it suggested that the reason his ability to cause chaos at the breakdown suddeny diminished was due to him being told to watch his penalty count, which then caused him to start 2nd guessing himself and leading to him becoming much less effective.

We also need to muzzle Faf de Klerk. That little bugger's tail is going to be right up after the last game and that will only encourage him
To play even more tenaciously. He needs to get a good smashing early on, and whatever back row we put out need to keep him contained. Pretty sure that means Robshaw should sit this one out, but again I think that's unlikely.

I think Brown is probably a cert for Saturday given his performance, which isn't the end of the world but when you look at some
Of the attacking options we have available it's a shame. Will Solomona get a decent run out? Again I think unlikely. I do wonder why we bring people like Solomona and Cips if they aren't going to get a chance to make any kind of impact. I suppose someone has to hold the tackle bags.

England have the talent available and have proved that they can score plenty of points against the Boks. So if we can tighten up our defence and decision making then there's no reason why we can't win, but for some reason I can't see it. I reckon the Boks will take this one, and if they can play at the same tempo we could be in real trouble.

 

[duncanb]

Genge
George
Sinkler
Hill
Itoje
Shields
Curry
Binny.
Youngs.
Cips
Faz
Slade.
May
Daly
Woodward.
LCD
Mako
Williams
Izekwe
Symonds
Spencer
Ford
Brown.
My 23 sure it wont be.

 

[duncanb]

Poite is a good ref, one of the best.

I agree occasionally has a moment but then do all.
As long as its not Clancy I'm not fussed by refs.
Teams lose or win for many other reasons than a ref.
Generally not adapting to his style.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I'm not trying to bash Ford, I don't think he's a coward and if anything I respect the fact that he stands up to the big men who constantly target him. All I'm saying is that no truly complete team has had such an obvious defensive weakness at 10. Every world cup winner in the professional era has had a 10 that is at least decent in defense (even Larkham scrapes in to that category).

Ford is a good attacking fly-half and, if Farrell has to play 12, then he is the current best option at 10. That said, I firmly believe we would be better off moving Farrell to 10 and benefiting from his better defense + game management to compliment his underrated attacking play (look at the points scored by Saracens and particularly their wingers towards the end of the season). Then we can give a chance at 12 to Loz or Francis or Slade and longer term find a midfield that works with our best player at 10!

No great team that I can think of has had a fly-half that plays second fiddle to their 12 in almost every important characteristic of the position; game/momentum management, directing the forwards in phase play, kicking out of hand and off the tee and general leadership across the pitch. Ford is a mercurial talent in some aspects of the game, but I simply cannot imagine England being the best team in the world with him in the most important position.

 

[ncurd]

Farrell isn't that good.......sorry he just isn't if we required him at 10 the management would be playing him at 10.

 

[Nudger]

Ford us a bit of a liability defensively but who to replace him with. Cipriani is so talented but can be a bit of a flake. Farrell on paper could be the man ... but I can't remember a really good performance from England with Farrell at 10. There have been a number with Ford.

So that leaves Skate or Lozowski

At least one against the all blacks

 

[Nudger]

U20 kick off now itv4

 

[Fuzzy du Plessis]

his underrated attacking play (look at the points scored by Saracens and particularly their wingers towards the end of the season).

And I'm sure it would be completely different with Ford at 10 behind that incredible Saracens pack.

Let's be honest, England aren't playing Ford and Farrell together because they're just so good we need to get them both in, it's because they have substantial weaknesses that need to be covered by the other. Maybe what we're waiting for is a complete 10 to come through the ranks rather than a centre that allows Faz to play 10.

I'll never understand why so many people complain about Ford looking weak behind a pack going backwards. So does basically every half back, and if the pack is going backwards England are going to lose the match anyway, even if the 10 was a perfectly crafted genetic hybrid of Wilko and Carter.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't think England have a 10 who is going to cut it long term in a top 5 side like Sexton, Barrett or even Foley. Ford has all the skills but lacks the physical attributes, Farrell needs pack dominance and centres that England can't give him and there's no one else who really comes close.

I don't rate Ford all that highly and would take Farrell as a 10 ahead of him but for England you need both, you need to do a hell of a lot elsewhere before those positions come up for debate.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I don't think England have a 10 who is going to cut it long term in a top 5 side like Sexton, Barrett or even Foley. Ford has all the skills but lacks the physical attributes, Farrell needs pack dominance and centres that England can't give him and there's no one else who really comes close.

I don't rate Ford all that highly and would take Farrell as a 10 ahead of him but for England you need both, you need to do a hell of a lot elsewhere before those positions come up for debate.

You seemed to have missed Dan Biggar off that list.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Couple of reports saying Launch is still struggling and Shields is in line to start at lock if he doesn't make it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Me whenever Eddie Jones releases a team sheet with half the players out of position

 

[ratsapprentice]

Couple of reports saying Launch is still struggling and Shields is in line to start at lock if he doesn't make it.

I think that's very possibly just them assuming he'll start at lock because he played there on Saturday.

I don't think the media are getting leaks in the way they used to.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/i...set-for-surprise-start-in-englands-second-row

Hatley seems to be implying it here. Hopefully its deliberate misinformation.