[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] South Africa vs. England (16/06/2018)

[Nudger]

Ford us a bit of a liability defensively but who to replace him with. Cipriani is so talented but can be a bit of a flake. Farrell on paper could be the man ... but I can't remember a really good performance from England with Farrell at 10. There have been a number with Ford.

So that leaves Skate or Lozowski

At least one against the all blacks

 

[fattyforward]

At least one against the all blacks

I'd forgotten that - I was even at the game- in my defence it was 4 years ago and I'm getting old.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm wondering if there would be wholesale changes for this coming weekend from both sides?

I think EJ played his hand too early with certain selections and how they play. Even the guys on this forum predicted that Daly would have a shot from 60m out, so what did England do? the very first chance they got, they went that way, and it was a monster kick too, but then the Boks adapted in not giving away penalties in the middle of the field.

So what could change?

For the Boks: There are hints that a few more experienced guys would feature, so guys like PSDT, Jesse Kriel and Schalk Brits are in the running for a chance, all would be a step up IMHO, so I'm happy with that. But our biggest issue in the first test was our defensive structure, and the more the team trains together, the better they will be collectively on defence.

For England: If it was up to me, I'd play Farrell at 10 and get another 12 in, maybe someone with a more direct approach. I would also suggest a quicker flanker, as Faf got past Robshaw and co. way too easily at the scrums. But England's main issue should be a focus on discipline and tackling technique. There were way too many high shots, and if they keep on hitting the guys high, they will get punished, especially if there is a SH ref on duty.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Has Farrell ever played 10 for England with another play maker outside him? I don't remember a time. I'm not anti-Ford but that's a luxury that's been given to him for the last 3 years, maybe it's worth trying Farrell out on even ground ie. Slade/Loz 13.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hey England! You should be happy!! Romain Poite is the referee for this match

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Agree, it would be an easy solution and fit the fallacy that Ford can't defend/tackle. We all know he can...

How can you watch the last game and still say Ford's defensive issue is a fallacy?! Every time anyone ran into Ford's channel they comfortably traveled over the gain-line and achieved significant momentum/quick ball. Tackle percentage is not the only indicator of a good defender, what do you think is more effective - Farrell rushing up and hitting a player 5m behind the gainline, stopping momentum and the offload even if he then bounces off the tackle and someone else has to come in and finish it or Ford clinging on whilst he gets dragged 10m backwards and both players either side have to rush back to help make the tackle? One is technically a missed tackle the other is not, but the latter is far more damaging for the team.

 

[Which Tyler]

Has Farrell ever played 10 for England with another play maker outside him? I don't remember a time. I'm not anti-Ford but that's a luxury that's been given to him for the last 3 years, maybe it's worth trying Farrell out on even ground ie. Slade/Loz 13.

Interesting definition of the word "luxury" there, given that it's almost universally agreed that it hinders Ford's game and that he plays better with an actual IC in the 12 shirt.

 

[SomeOke]

Hey England! You should be happy!! Romain Poite is the referee for this match

Never enjoyed a game this guy referees...

 

[TRF_heineken]

Never enjoyed a game this guy referees...

Yup. As soon as I read that he's in charge, I immediately become angered and I know I will feel frustrated all throughout the test.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Interesting definition of the word "luxury" there, given that it's almost universally agreed that it hinders Ford's game and that he plays better with an actual IC in the 12 shirt.

It's universally agreed that he attacks better with an actual IC at 12, but when he's on the back foot he's f-ed by himself.

 

[Scotty]

Taking your advice into account, this means the England team should look like:
1. Mako
2. LCD (speed and go forward)
3. Sinckler
4. Launchbury (go forward)
5. Iseke
6. Wilson (speed and go forward)
7. Curry
8. Shields (speed and go forward)
9. Spencer (speed)
10. Cipriani (unpredictable)
11. Solomona (speed)
12. Farrell
13. Daly (speed and go forward)
14. May
15. Woodward (go foward)

I quite like this team. I know you said 8 needed speed and go forward, but Billy and Hughes are off the pace and Simmonds is not a carrier for tight heavy duty places. Which is why I felt Shields to 8 is the only option to cover both speed and go forward.

I know you say Cipriani is unpredictable, but his defence can be similar to Ford, i.e gives up the gain line and sucks in worried teammates which just tightens defence and opens the space on the wing for the opposition. Ford never shies a tackle, but as much as I love him, Cipriani will sometimes show no interest in the tackle at all.

Daly would perfectly suit more speed and go forward at 13, but that leaves us very bare in the back three, especially if we don't want Brown on the wing again. So I would probably leave Daly at 15, and try Lowzoski at 13 and hope he improves his defensive positioning.

Generally not bad but ffs shields isnt an 8 and is he really that quick. Get billy back to power and fitness as that what you need in tight carries. Shields 6 to give him his shot. Simmonds on the bench as if your talking speed he will be faster than any other fwd and definatly no worse a player than hughes.

Solomona may woodward back 3. With daly at 13. I thought this to and prob even put it down somewhere and it is dangerous as hell with daly 13 but thinking aboit it uncapped woodward at 15 and unpridicable defence of solomona at this level is too much of a risk. Brown for woodward with slade(or loz)/woodwaed on the bench

Personal opinion of my that george and sinks ate better finishers as what we lose in carrying in the first half becomes more destructive to tired defenders in the second half. But also because LCD offers alot of aggressionaround the park and williams is great at the breakdowns and that sort pf stuff which we still need. But i know alot wont agree.

 

[ThebigARena]

Surprised to find SA odds on with bookies for this . Technicals aside , law of average suggest England will square up the series and end the drought , good value at 7/5 I'll be having a nibble on that

 

[ratsapprentice]

People really think we had any notable issues at 10?

A bit like when people said LCD ****** the last throw in....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

George offers more impact than LCD from the bench, But he's also a better starter.
It's like when people wanted Binny on the bench cause he comes on and smashes people, But I'd rather our best player on for 60 than 20.

 

[Aristodemus]

For me the Ford question boils down to this. Do we want to be a team that is there to go out and win a game, or do we go out to try and not lose?
Our attack was good, we put 40 points on SA away. Individual errors cost two trys, Itoje and Daly and we had terrible discipline.
That's why we lost, not Ford losing a few metres, who was clearly a target for the big SA runners. In fairness to him too, with the possible exception of Farrell, our entire back line would be getting knocked back by the likes of Vermeulen charging down their channel.

 

[ncurd]

Honestly you look at the first 16 minutes and ask yourself would we be 24-3 up without Ford? I don't think Farrell can play consistently that well although he has shown the ability to do it.

That leaves Cipriani who has exactly the same faults as Ford and the lack of playing with these players whereas Ford/Farrell at least have been playing since U18's.

Anyone who thinks Ford is the reason we lost on Saturday is living in a daydream he was one of the main reasons we only lost by 3 points. What has to happen is our forwards need to stop giving away penalties and actually compete at the frigging breakdown.

Everyone targets Ford how often has that targeting actually led to a try or a penalty?

 

[Mumbles119]

How can you watch the last game and still say Ford's defensive issue is a fallacy?! Every time anyone ran into Ford's channel they comfortably traveled over the gain-line and achieved significant momentum/quick ball. Tackle percentage is not the only indicator of a good defender, what do you think is more effective - Farrell rushing up and hitting a player 5m behind the gainline, stopping momentum and the offload even if he then bounces off the tackle and someone else has to come in and finish it or Ford clinging on whilst he gets dragged 10m backwards and both players either side have to rush back to help make the tackle? One is technically a missed tackle the other is not, but the latter is far more damaging for the team.

I am saying the fallacy is that Ford does not tackle. He does tackle, yes he gives up metres, but I think the strengths and weaknesses of Ford are more of an overall advantage to England than Farrell at 10. I do see your point that when a team mate has to help complete the tackle, that could be counted as a missed tackle, but I still think Ford is worth it.

 

[Mumbles119]

Generally not bad but ffs shields isnt an 8 and is he really that quick. Get billy back to power and fitness as that what you need in tight carries. Shields 6 to give him his shot. Simmonds on the bench as if your talking speed he will be faster than any other fwd and definatly no worse a player than hughes.

Solomona may woodward back 3. With daly at 13. I thought this to and prob even put it down somewhere and it is dangerous as hell with daly 13 but thinking aboit it uncapped woodward at 15 and unpridicable defence of solomona at this level is too much of a risk. Brown for woodward with slade(or loz)/woodwaed on the bench

Personal opinion of my that george and sinks ate better finishers as what we lose in carrying in the first half becomes more destructive to tired defenders in the second half. But also because LCD offers alot of aggressionaround the park and williams is great at the breakdowns and that sort pf stuff which we still need. But i know alot wont agree.

Maybe it is time to take that risk? If it ends up being the most effective solution for the RWC, what is there to lose?

In an ideal world I would prefer Shields at 6 too, but the question was how to add speed and go forward at 8. I had to count both Billy and Hughes out because they are both not up to speed, and Simmonds was my immediate next option. But I felt that starting he would give speed but not the heavy duty go forward required from 8. Would rather see him come off the bench for impact. Maybe Shields would bring enough heavy duty threat at 6 to allow for Simmonds at 8?

 

[unrated]

Hey England! You should be happy!! Romain Poite is the referee for this match

I ranted about him in last weeks match thread. Him and Jerome Garces has consistently been the worst refs for the Springboks out of the current crop of referees.

I dislike that he doesn't favour a fluid game, a good ref is a ref you don't know about and Poite makes sure you know he's there with constant blowing of the whistle. On very rare occasions you might see him play the advantage (Ok I might be over exaggerating but that's the feeling I get when watching him!)
Also he seems like a dick. Lets be honest France controls World Rugby with England involved to a lesser extent. They are using their political power to get these guys into almost every game.

I understand that world rugby rotates refs from the different countries but we do seem to get Poite and Garces consistently with every series (Incoming and outgoing) and with every rugby championship.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ford concedes metres in the tackle, compare that to how many metres we concede with each stupid penalty. How many penalties does Ford give away? Ford could be targeted 10 times in a game and would still concede fewer metres than one braindead penalty.

The reason we are falling backwards isn't because Ford concedes ground, it's because ALL our forwards concede ground as they just stand on the gainline and then don't even properly square up to someone running at them or double up to stop them dead. Our defence literally consists of having our forwards merely being in the way on the gain line. For at least has the excuse of being small, what excuse do 100kg + forwards have?

If our forwards properly competed at the breakdown in both attack and defence and our defence actually worked actively rather than passively, that would do far more for England's defence than having a Wilko like tackler at 10.