[June Tests 2018: 1st Test] South Africa vs. England (09/06/2018)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

One thing for sure: that front row will concede penalties if the Saffers get in their faces. Marler's hardly known for his restraint.

Genge wouldn't help that department though.

I'm not happy about this midfield at all, 3 ball players and a fourth on the bench, no line breakers at all. Some of us have been *****ing about a lack of ball carriers in the pack fir ages, now it looks like we're phasing them out from the backs as well! Amongst that starting lineup I count 6 players who I'd consider running with the ball an identified strength - that's nowhere near enough. (Since you ask: Vunipolae, Sinckler, Youngs, May, Daly)

This XV has kick-and-clap circa 2009 written all over it. Eek

Ok but who are the linebreakers?

England rugby is lacking them in general now Te'o is out and Manu wants the summer off who is else do you turn too?
Lozowski really the only other option IMO.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Genge wouldn't help that department though.



Ok but who are the linebreakers?

England rugby is lacking them in general now Te'o is out and Manu wants the summer off who is else do you turn too?
Lozowski really the only other option IMO.

Woodward. Even if EJ's adamant on Daly at 15 then Woodward has played 13 in the past and could do a job there this tour while Tuilagi, Te'o, JJ and Marchant (and Nowell?) are all unavailable.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Someone who has occasionally covered at club level shouldn't be in contention for starting at international level, no matter how stop-gap it is.



I wanna see how far Daly can kick a goal from at altitude. He's pushing 60m at regular level, if he doesn't at least attempt from our 22 I'm gonna be disappointed

 

[MikeTheNative]

With Slade and Farrell in the centre your going to be looking at bringing Daly in from 15 to make the breaks, probably a reason he's been picked there and not Brown.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Someone who has occasionally covered at club level shouldn't be in contention for starting at international level, no matter how stop-gap it is.



I wanna see how far Daly can kick a goal from at altitude. He's pushing 60m at regular level, if he doesn't at least attempt from our 22 I'm gonna be disappointed

I tend to agree but we're scraping the bottom of the barrel a bit at 13 now and Woodward is a quality player so I don't think he'd struggle with the swap.

Daly touched on it briefly in an interview with Jamie George, he didn't really give much insight but he must be at 70+.

 

[Which Tyler]

I can see the logic of most things - but I can't say I'm overly impressed.
Tight 5 are fine.
Robshaw should be sitting on a beach sipping Mojitos; as it is, he's in there to hold Curry's hand whilst he gains experience. I don't think it's time to dump him, but he really needed to spend this summer giving his mind and body a chance to actually recuperate and build some beneift from the beastings. I'd be nervous about 2 rookies on the flanks; but I think it would have been better long-term management.
No lock on the bench is a bit risky, and surprising given Eddie's usual desire for as many locks as possible. Surely this is a fitnes issue rather than a desired outcome.
I'm fine with Ford n Faz (though again, Fazlet should be chilling out somewhere he doesn't have to think about rugby); but I can't see how they work with Slade - who I like on principal; I just feel he's wasted at 13; and doubley so at 13 alongside FordnFaz. It's just a bit weird; but then the only centre we've taken who could attack the line is Daly - and I CAN see the point of getting some gametime into him at 15; especially doing so at altitude.
Daly at FB is a good thing; but Brown on the wing... as with the BaaBaa.s match, that can only be as starting backup in case Daly has a howler; when they can switch positions and not use up a replacement. I don't like it, but it is what it is. I'm also fine with Drunken Denny getting as few minutes for England as possible - on the principal of twattishness, not talent. I'd far rather have had Daly and Woodward starting together; but that's got that old "experience" issue, of having a rookie FB, with his backup being a rookie international - a risk well worth taking IMO; and an issue that is of Eddie's own making.
The less said about Francis over Lozowski (or Cipriani) the better

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Care: drink driving conviction
Cipriani: drink driving conviction
Denny: stays out late one night.....EVIL DOER, BURN HIM

 

[Which Tyler]

Care: drink driving conviction
Cipriani: drink driving conviction
Denny: stays out late one night.....EVIL DOER, BURN HIM

It's much more the contract shenanigans, which says far more about his character.

Oh, I also doubt you'll ever find me sticking up for any of the drink drivers

 

[SomeOke]

The biggest worry: England seem set to dominate a territorial battle, we have two debs on the wings, and a HB and FB in Faf and Willie who don't have a natural kicking game.
The biggest opportunity I think I think will be our pace out wide, with Brown on the wing and some serious pace and strike power in 11/13/14 and some creative spark form Willie and Faf (Also JLDP watch this space).

The question is whether our outside backs will ever get any opportunity if we are penned in our own half the whole game.
My feeling is that if we try to beat England at their game we will get stomped, but if we can bring something a bit different we could surprise them.

Hopefully Rassie is pulling the old bait and switch with the tactics against Wales.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The biggest worry: England seem set to dominate a territorial battle, we have two debs on the wings, and a HB and FB in Faf and Willie who don't have a natural kicking game.
The biggest opportunity I think I think will be our pace out wide, with Brown on the wing and some serious pace and strike power in 11/13/14 and some creative spark form Willie and Faf (Also JLDP watch this space).

The question is whether our outside backs will ever get any opportunity if we are penned in our own half the whole game.
My feeling is that if we try to beat England at their game we will get stomped, but if we can bring something a bit different we could surprise them.

Hopefully Rassie is pulling the old bait and switch with the tactics against Wales.

Yeah, but the conditions in DC wasn't really made to play any other way than we did, and yet we still showed attacking promise with the opportunities we had. If guys didn't knock on I'm sure we would've scored more tries. And the weather forecast seems to show no rain expected in Joburg for the next week, so it's all good for us to play.

What I'm also keen to see is how Nienaber's ideas on defence will aid us. Perhaps we should hope that our defence is more in place than attack. As we certainly have enough X-factor throughout the team to attack, but it would be our defence that would be the key to victory. I'm also hoping our set piece will work properly, and that RG has a blinder in his first test.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Hopefully Rassie is pulling the old bait and switch with the tactics against Wales.

I don't think anyone will be surprised they have gone away from the drop the ball every phase tactic.

 

[unrated]

My feeling is that if we try to beat England at their game we will get stomped, but if we can bring something a bit different we could surprise them.

Hopefully Rassie is pulling the old bait and switch with the tactics against Wales.

Well... i think it's worth noting that they are playing our old game. We have just regressed in our ability to play that kicking style while attempting to play a more Southern running style.

But yea not gonna say im confident to win this game, im guessing a lot of South Africans have adopted a wait and see approach for this first game.

 

[TRF_heineken]

But yea not gonna say im confident to win this game, im guessing a lot of South Africans have adopted a wait and see approach for this first game.

As long as there's improvement from last year I'll be a happy camper.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

England don't have a game,
We just pass to one out runners who are at a standstill and don't put anyone in at the breakdown (ours or yours)

 

[MikeTheNative]

England don't have a game,
We just pass to one out runners who are at a standstill and don't put anyone in at the breakdown (ours or yours)

Look longing at Billy and hope he makes yards.

 

[SomeOke]

But yea not gonna say im confident to win this game, im guessing a lot of South Africans have adopted a wait and see approach for this first game.

My approach to every game in recent times:
1) Pessimism and moaning with my mates for months.
2) 2 weeks before a game the media spin gets me a little excited.
3) Couple days before I'm feeling quietly optimistic
4) Two hours before the game and 6 beers down, I loudly pronounce "Bokke by 20"
5) We lose.
6) Get sad drunk and watch the 1995 World Cup, go to sleep on a bed of tears.

 

[MikeTheNative]

It's been such a bad few years for SA that it can't get any worse.................... can it?

 

[TRF_heineken]

My approach to every game in recent times:
1) Pessimism and moaning with my mates for months.
2) 2 weeks before a game the media spin gets me a little excited.
3) Couple days before I'm feeling quietly optimistic
4) Two hours before the game and 6 beers down, I loudly pronounce "Bokke by 20"
5) We lose.
6) Get sad drunk and watch the 1995 World Cup, go to sleep on a bed of tears.

Bliksem! That's just sad!

Mine is more like this:
1) Serious discussion with my brothers, father and friends about the composition of the team and where we can improve (usually about 3 months ahead of the first game)
2) 2 weeks before the game the excitement builds and our whatsapp group is full of jokes, predictions and shared media reports.
3) When the team is announced there are usually 2 outcomes. Either excitement or disappointment (under AC it was mostly disappointment).
4) The morning of the test, I put on my bok jersey, go to the local butchery, get some biltong, droewors and braaivleis. Listen to Leon Schuster in the car - Klip fokken hard!
5) Watch the game, shouting profusely at the tv, wife upset that I woke the babies
6) We lose/win - have a braai and wonder what could have changed, and look forward to the next one...

 

[Every Time Ref]

Ok but who are the linebreakers?

England rugby is lacking them in general now Te'o is out and Manu wants the summer off who is else do you turn too?
Lozowski really the only other option IMO.

Well Solomona's on the bench, I'm not his biggest fan but at the very least it would mean that all of our back three offer an attacking threat (which should be bare minimum IMO)/allow Daly to step into 13 and have some danger there.

Are you saying that, given the options, you're happy with the 10-12-13 combo? I'm a real believer that a distributor is a real waste if he doesn't have enough players around him who attract defenders and/or use the space. I think what we have is the extreme end of that - who are the SA centres going to be keeping an eye on, to stop them drifting out and cutting down the space for May/Daly?

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Yep great comment.
Amongst that starting lineup I count 6 players who I'd consider running with the ball an identified strength - that's nowhere near enough. (Since you ask: Vunipolae, Sinckler, Youngs, May, Daly)

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. "Running with the ball" is actually a fairly broad criteria when applied practically. You have "ball carriers" for the purpose of wearing down the opposition and providing continuity in phase play - Itoje, Isiekwe and George are all international standard here if not consistent line breakers. Mako and Sinckler are freakish in their ability to make line breaks from stationary positions against set defences and are probably in a club of <10 tight five players that can do this globally. I'll agree that we are missing this type of player in the backs, but actually with the consistency with which forwards find themselves dotted around the field these days, this doesn't tend to matter hugely other than 1st phase off a full line-out or scrum.

Then you have "strike runners" (I've made these categories up, but hopefully you get the gist) who are tasked with picking of gaps created in the defence, exploiting turnovers and initiating counter-attacks/line-breaks. Here we have - Daly, May, Youngs, Brown (I don't like including him but he is difficult to tackle and frequently steps out of or ducks under tackles). Slade is also capable of putting in a good step and fend, although I'll concede he is more of a distributor than a JJ/Marchant/Daly/Te'o in that channel.

That leaves Ford, Faz, Curry and Robshaw. Both Flankers will carry all day if asked to, albeit with limited gain line success, but they are predominantly there to provide link play and support breakdowns. Ford is a pure distributor, but Faz has been hitting some lovely lines of late and I'd be very surprised to see him without a line break after 80 mins vs SA.

In essence, what I'm saying is, whilst not perfect, I don't think we will be short of options of people who can make an impact ball-in-hand. I'd happily be proven wrong, but I'm trying to think of successful sides that are significantly more slanted towards out-and-out runners than this and am drawing a bit of a blank. Conversely the Saracens side that dominated the final month of the premiership is arguably less blessed in the ball carrying department and didn't seem to struggle at all.