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June Internationals: Japan v Wales, Second Test (15/06/13)

Stats can be interpretated in whatever way you want them to be done ... how about the meters Reed made? Seemingly overlooked. Made more than others ... Bevington, McCusker and King for example. He isn't lazy as it's being suggested, he's not a great player but again he's not terrible. He's a stop gap filler, whilst injuries and players are away.

Draggs it is the truth tho the people I constantly harping on about Reed in most of these threads are yourself and Duck. It's like you boys get your knickers in a twist. Quite amusing.

Oh and I'm really just sick and tired of seeing players constantly slated, get's really boring and very depressing to read. Got to be realistic at times too and realise that players make mistakes, this is a development tour and yes some players are not as good as the ones with the Lions or are being rested. It's part and parcel of the game.

I agree with most of that Cymro. I do think that many players are judged far too quickly, only have to look back at the conclusion some have already made about the quality of Navidi.

However sometimes I think it's fine to question the inclusion of certain players. Lou Reed is a choice I think that deserves to be questioned. As you say, he's a stop-gap player at best, yet has been picked ahead of Coombs who demonstrated that he has more to offer in the 6 nations, and Peers who could have a bright future ahead of him following an excellent season for the Ospreys. On a development tour, I would have hoped to have seen Peers given a chance, at the very least off the bench.
 
I am not saying to go abroad, just giving perspective. Members here, almost to a man, are much more respectful to playrs than elsewhere. We must be able to say that so and so had a poor match. I suppose I just want to see my side succeed, and certain players won't be beneficial to that. I am not saying that player X is a dogs dick, just that they are behind the side in whatever aspect.
 
I agree with most of that Cymro. I do think that many players are judged far too quickly, only have to look back at the conclusion some have already made about the quality of Navidi.

However sometimes I think it's fine to question the inclusion of certain players. Lou Reed is a choice I think that deserves to be questioned. As you say, he's a stop-gap player at best, yet has been picked ahead of Coombs who demonstrated that he has more to offer in the 6 nations, and Peers who could have a bright future ahead of him following an excellent season for the Ospreys. On a development tour, I would have hoped to have seen Peers given a chance, at the very least off the bench.

I don't deny the likes of Coombs and Peers should probably feature more, I can't venture into the mind of Robin and Co in terms of selection but I can only assume that maybe something like fatigue, ****les etc. have affected why Coombs is on the bench or that they want someone with an older head in there with the likes of Peers or Coombs I do not know. It goes back to what I have said in the Lions threads and podcasts. The game has moved on from being a 15 man game, it's now about a 23 man game and what the bench can offer, so a possible explanation is that the likes of Peers and Coombs offer better impact of the bench than what Reed would.

As for Navidi, he's had a breakout season this season so I am looking forward to seeing what he can do in the Welsh shirt. Really thought Wales missed him last weekend.
 
As for Navidi, he's had a breakout season this season so I am looking forward to seeing what he can do in the Welsh shirt. Really thought Wales missed him last weekend.

Fully agree, he was superb all season for the Blues, whether it was at 6 or 7. His workrate is huge, and I thought he showed a physical edge that he possibly lacked at U20 level. He may not be ready yet to challenge Sam or Tips for a starting spot in a full Welsh team, but if one, or both get injured, he may have an important role to play in a big game in the future.

Sam Lewis isn't far behind, but currently makes a few more mistakes that Navidi.
 
Same reason NFL have a offensive team full of lard arses and a defensive team full of lard arses. They would not last 30 minutes let alone 80 minutes in a game due to endurance issues.

Play 40 minutes each.

Stats can be interpretated in whatever way you want them to be done ... how about the meters Reed made? Seemingly overlooked. Made more than others ... Bevington, McCusker and King for example. He isn't lazy as it's being suggested, he's not a great player but again he's not terrible. He's a stop gap filler, whilst injuries and players are away.

None of those players mentioned has especially good games either. Bevington was surprisingly non existent in the loose, McCusker was more noticeable in a very bad way though. As I mentioned he was the worst player, nowhere near the ball carrying ability to play 8 and that's just when he catches it.

Ignore 'stats'. It's like they say, lies, damned lies, and statistics. Espnscrum's are often completely off, or paint the wrong picture.

They aren't all bad. Fact is even without the stats, just watching it is clear that Spratt makes zero impact in attack and is an odd selection and Lou Reed's work rate and impact is more like some of the locks we had in the 1990's. Here's the GIF of just jogging by letting us get knocked out the top 8 last year. Compare his 2 tackles and his slowness to the work AWJ and Evans get through.

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Fully agree, he was superb all season for the Blues, whether it was at 6 or 7. His workrate is huge, and I thought he showed a physical edge that he possibly lacked at U20 level. He may not be ready yet to challenge Sam or Tips for a starting spot in a full Welsh team, but if one, or both get injured, he may have an important role to play in a big game in the future.

Navidi isn't strong enough for the top level, he's all hair and effort but little impact, more a Pro12 standard player. Daniel Thomas has more potential at international level.

I'd prefer not to play him out of position in only his second cap. He could play centre, But just because he can doesn't mean he should. We've messed around too many players shoving them all over the pitch, so for once I'd like to see Patchell stick to playing 10. Considering the Blues have no other quality 10's, he'll be staying there for the foreseeable future.

Adding another position is hardly going to hurt. In fact it could help, I would rather have an extra good player on the pitch than an average one. Many quality 10's have done time at 12, hardly did Henson any harm when he was at a similar age. I think Patchell would make a good 12 and it would be a worth a try. Especially when the alternative is Spratt, which is the main point here really.
 
They aren't all bad. Fact is even without the stats, just watching it is clear that Spratt makes zero impact in attack and is an odd selection and Lou Reed's work rate and impact is more like some of the locks we had in the 1990's. Here's the GIF of just jogging by letting us get knocked out the top 8 last year. Compare his 2 tackles and his slowness to the work AWJ and Evans get through.
To add to this, rugby teams now have teams of analysts to crunch stats and numbers on player fatigue, power of hits, distance run etc.

Stats have their limitations (eg tackle completion of 10/3 against the All Blacks is better than 10/2 against Japan imo) but working out the regular patterns in the stats can say a lot about a player.
 
Navidi isn't strong enough for the top level, he's all hair and effort but little impact, more a Pro12 standard player. Daniel Thomas has more potential at international level.

See this is where I disagree. Navidi is as physical as Tipuric, and he has no issues with that aspect of the game. Navidi has shown an aggressive edge to his play this season, making plenty of carries and generally being a nuisance. He's developing very nicely. Daniel Thomas has a lot of potential, but until he plays regularly for the Scarlets we can't fully judge yet. I'd also say that Navidi is currently more physical than Thomas.

Adding another position is hardly going to hurt. In fact it could help, I would rather have an extra good player on the pitch than an average one. Many quality 10's have done time at 12, hardly did Henson any harm when he was at a similar age. I think Patchell would make a good 12 and it would be a worth a try. Especially when the alternative is Spratt, which is the main point here really.

I'd argue that it harmed Henson early on. Swansea and the Ospreys should be decided on a position for him, either at 10, or 12, instead he was played in a different position every game, including on the wing and fullback. Hook also suffered as soon as he was switched between centre and outside half all the time. Gareth Owen is another example of a player struggling due to his versatility. I'm not necessarily saying that moving Patchell to centre for one game would be a bad thing, but overall I just want to see him kept in a single position and allowed to develop.
 
See this is where I disagree. Navidi is as physical as Tipuric, and he has no issues with that aspect of the game. Navidi has shown an aggressive edge to his play this season, making plenty of carries and generally being a nuisance. He's developing very nicely. Daniel Thomas has a lot of potential, but until he plays regularly for the Scarlets we can't fully judge yet. I'd also say that Navidi is currently more physical than Thomas.

Navidi is shown up against the top sides, I remember him getting physically blown away by Toulon in the Heineken Cup which is the kind of back row he will come up against at international level. He's a good player at RaboPro12 standard for a lower mid table side and should have a decent career but as a club player not international. He's a mile away from Tipuric and Warburton. Tipuric is probably better in every aspect to be honest.

I'd argue that it harmed Henson early on. Swansea and the Ospreys should be decided on a position for him, either at 10, or 12, instead he was played in a different position every game, including on the wing and fullback. Hook also suffered as soon as he was switched between centre and outside half all the time. Gareth Owen is another example of a player struggling due to his versatility. I'm not necessarily saying that moving Patchell to centre for one game would be a bad thing, but overall I just want to see him kept in a single position and allowed to develop.

1. Henson's ability to switch turned out to be of immense benefit to Wales as it meant that both he and the best fly half Stephen Jones could be on the pitch at once. Otherwise we would have had to choose between one or the other at 10 and played an average player in Parker or somebody at 12 after Harris left. So it was a very good decision not to just stick him at 12.

2. Hook was a 10 for the predominant part of his career, the only times he played centre was for a very brief period when Stephen Jones was captain and both needed to be on the pitch in 2007. Soon after he was a Grand Slam winning fly half in 2008 and put in a very good performance at fly half against England, so no evidence to suggest that he suffered as soon as this happened.

The second time in his career he played centre was for the Ospreys with Biggar after he was on pants form for a period, he soon turned it around to put in a great season for the Ospreys to win the 2010 Pro12 and form a nice combination with Roberts.

Hook then insisted he was a 10 and left for Perpignan to do so, and moved back there for Wales. However unfortunately Hook has always had awful game management in tight knockout style games and this was soon found out and he couldn't make the team at 10, and Jonathan Davies had sewn up the centre position he deserted to move back to 10 meaning his only option was as utility back on the bench after Halfpenny also made 15 his own.

In fact he has never really been thrown all over the place week to week, and it has nothing to do with his weaknesses at 10 that he's had all his career and his preference to play 10 that has seen him limited to a utility bench player.

3. Gareth Owen struggled as he is a sub standard player who is only good enough to be a useful enough reserve fodder at regional level. If he was good enough, then he would have got a spot in the team and wouldn't have to worry about utility, the fact is he wasn't good enough. You won't find many more versatile backs than James O'Connor, Kurtley Beale, Juan Hernandez or Isa Nacewa, yet all have found themselves places in the starting XV of top sides as they are all quality players that Gareth Owen isn't.

So the evidence suggets will be no harm in Patchell playing 12 and in fact it could help him. In fact famously Dan Carter played 12 in his early days at RWC 2003. More recently Leinster are playing Madigan at 12 and I think Sexton may have played there in his early days. From Wales, both Neil Jenkins and Stephen Jones both played 12 very early on.

So much as I would like to see Jones and Henson on the field as opposed to Jones and Parker previously, right now I would rather have two better players in Biggar and Patchell on the field as opposed to just one in Biggar with a mediocre player in Spratt. Especially considering the lack of use future use Spratt is to the team compared to Patchell.
 
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Navidi is shown up against the top sides, I remember him getting physically blown away by Toulon in the Heineken Cup which is the kind of back row he will come up against at international level. He's a good player at RaboPro12 standard for a lower mid table side and should have a decent career but as a club player not international. He's a mile away from Tipuric and Warburton. Tipuric is probably better in every aspect to be honest.

Difficult to judge Navidi when the pack as a whole is getting blown away. Warburton has also struggled in a Blues pack which isn't of the necessary quality. Whilst I agree that Warburton and Tipuric are way ahead at present, Navidi has shown enough to warrant not being cast onto the international scrap heap before he's even had a cap.

Biggar was dismissed by many, but a lot of those have changed their tune now. Give these players a chance before writing them off.

utility players

Good points. I still have the opinion that the likes of Hook, Henson and yes even Gareth Owen really struggled to cement positions due to their versatility. Henson is possibly the exception, but there was a decent gap between his emergence for Swansea and his real break-through season for Wales in '04/'05. This coincided with him being picked consistently at 12 for the Ospreys and Wales.

Still, there is evidence that playing at 12 can certainly help.
 
Same reason NFL have a offensive team full of lard arses and a defensive team full of lard arses. They would not last 30 minutes let alone 80 minutes in a game due to endurance issues.


Possibly one of the stupidest things I've read. Here's a test for you, go and stand in a position a lineman in the NFL stands then move your feet extremely quickly on the spot for 30 seconds, see how tired you feel. now do that with a friend pushing against you, see how tiring it is.
 
Good points. I still have the opinion that the likes of Hook, Henson and yes even Gareth Owen really struggled to cement positions due to their versatility. Henson is possibly the exception, but there was a decent gap between his emergence for Swansea and his real break-through season for Wales in '04/'05. This coincided with him being picked consistently at 12 for the Ospreys and Wales..

There is an easy explanation for the gap between Henson's Wales debut in 2001 and him cementing his place in 2004. It's not to do with utility but this man essentially being fast tracked into the side and taking the place that would of probably been Henson's earlier otherwise ...

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Anyway the point is that I don't think Patchell playing 12 will hurt. I would rather have him than Spratt there for sure. I also think he is strong player who could really make a good centre as well.

Difficult to judge Navidi when the pack as a whole is getting blown away. Warburton has also struggled in a Blues pack which isn't of the necessary quality. Whilst I agree that Warburton and Tipuric are way ahead at present, Navidi has shown enough to warrant not being cast onto the international scrap heap before he's even had a cap.

Biggar was dismissed by many, but a lot of those have changed their tune now. Give these players a chance before writing them off.

Fair enough about the point about the Blues pack getting bullied every match in the front 5. But I don't really think Warburton has struggled like some make out, in fact I think it is becoming almost just the said thing for a lot of the media and people without actually really knowing. For example some are still going on and giving him grief about poor form after this performance and the England match where he played well. H e wasn't even that bad "off form" either, he wasn't his imperious best like 2011, but was by no means a terrible player some make out.

Regarding Navidi, I do think he is a good selection for this match though.

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As for Biggar, he's always had a strong tactical game, just had a rotten second season I think. He has said that disastrous Fiji match in 2010 where he was publicly criticised by Howley hurt his confidence and affected him.

Credit to him for coming back though, as he got a lot of unfair hate from many fans. In fact Cyril said once he would personally drive him out at one stage.
 
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Fair enough about the point about the Blues pack getting bullied every match in the front 5. But I don't really think Warburton has struggled like some make out, in fact I think it is becoming almost just the said thing for a lot of the media and people without actually really knowing. For example some are still going on and giving him grief about poor form after this performance and the England match where he played well. H e wasn't even that bad "off form" either, he wasn't his imperious best like 2011, but was by no means a terrible player some make out.

I agree about Warburton, for Wales at least. He was still putting in good shifts, just wasn't managing the 3-5 turn-overs people were used to seeing per game. For the Blues though, he really couldn't get his game going on the back-foot. He showed the odd glimpse of class, but with a front five that was poor in just about every aspect of the game, not just scrummaging, the loose forwards really do have a difficult time, which in turn gives the backline little opportunity.

Regarding Navidi. You may be right, and he'll never fully make the step-up (won't be the first player), but he's a 22 year old who's just had a breakthrough season, in a side that has been massively disappointing. In the Pro12 at least. In a lot of games, he was one of the only positives. He also captained the Blues on numerous occasions. Scrum V highlighted him as being one of the stand-out Welsh Pro12 players last season with some impressive stats across the board, including an average of 14 tackles a game. I don't care if you don't think he's the next big thing in Welsh rugby who will be challenging Warbs and Tips next season, but I just ask not to dismiss his international career before it's even begun.

When Warbs and Tips aren't injured, he won't be needed, but one look at the tighthead shows that you need more than 2 players in a single position. I'm sure there will be times when one, if not both Warbs and Tips will be injured (quite likely with Warburton's track record), and in that case I hope we'll have someone with a little experience to call upon in the shape of Navidi, Lewis or Thomas, whichever one of those improves the most over the coming seasons.
 
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Yeah, I was in the Tovey boat three years ago... Biggar has developed into and excellent standoff, he has confidence in himself which is crucial. Excellent nerve, seen slotting those touchline kicks in Dublin. Really wish he was in Australia.
 
Now not working at all, crashing straight away and have to watch an advert every bloody time


EDIT: lol at all the chat about Patchell at centre, and guess where he ends up early on? Owen Williams off, possibly concussion, saw him take a knock to the head in a tackle

DOUBLE EDI: Guess who's had a very good start to the game too? Mr Lou Reed. Never thought I'd say this, but his work rate is excellent
 
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Bloody hell Patchell... Overlap.
Robinson looking lively, somebody spiked his water.
 
Pretorius slipping off a few tackles so far, needs to shape up. Were getting away with a bit of skulduggery at the breakdown and the Japanese (who're looking feisty) are getting away with a few cheeky digs in retaliation...
 
I think there will be more handbags before this game is finished. Wales look the more dangerous of the two sides but are being let down by poor discipline. I can see the Japs losing the ball in the ruck more in future as their clearout isn't great. They need to put more players than the Welsh into the ruck.
 
I think there will be more handbags before this game is finished. Wales look the more dangerous of the two sides but are being let down by poor discipline. I can see the Japs losing the ball in the ruck more in future as their clearout isn't great. They need to put more players than the Welsh into the ruck.

Definitely, I reckon the Japanese have been told to get right into the faces and try and intimidate the Welsh boys, been at it from the very first Welsh attack.
 
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