Ireland v Samoa - 26 August 2023

[Leonormous Boozer]

All your points are valid except suggesting that this was a weird place to make my point. It's a good place and the best place available right now because Ireland are the epitome of a team that has had lots of time together against top opposition and samoa are the epitome of a team that hasn't

Fiji england doesn't make the point as well at all because at least fiji have now had 8 tests this cycle against rugby championship or six nations sides, and england hasn't made the most of the opportunities they've been given - their team keeps changing, their strategies and coaches keep changing, their culture is poor. More importantly they don't have a Leinster equivalent

If samoa were playing scotland the point may have been better, but they're not. And scotland doesn't quite have a Leinster equivalent.
.
I feel your sensitivity to people thinking Irish players aren't great is getting in your way here. I'm not denying the Irish players are great. But then part of what makes them great is also all of that other stuff you mention. So maybe a better point would have been that this game will show the difference between being the most professional tier one team and everything that comes with that versus being a tier 2 team.

I still think structure and education is a far far bigger influence to be honest. Georgia have seen constant progression for 20 years and until very recently I doubt they've played as many tier 1 sides as Samoa, they've just had a strong focus on age grade teams, Italy's recent improvement in the quality of rugby has been the same.

Without strong age-grade systems I think the pacific islands sides have a ceiling not much higher than what we've seen from them in terms of how good they can be. I don't think it matters who they play their rugby against each year in this regard either.

 

[big ginger 8]

Squad being named Sunday instead of Monday now, seems odd but suggests more certainty around the injuries.

 

[Groundhog]

Yeah the squad is definitely picked in his mind now with Conan, Sheehan and Kelleher getting good updates. Still fairly ballsy considering we could and let's face it with our luck probably will get injuries on Saturday

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah the squad is definitely picked in his mind now with Conan, Sheehan and Kelleher getting good updates. Still fairly ballsy considering we could and let's face it with our luck probably will get injuries on Saturday

You can replace injured players so not a risk really.

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

If he doesn't already know, he will know by Saturday night. There's no point dragging it out unnecessarily and it will make the squad a happier place to be. All upside and no risk to delay it to Monday. He briefs the team Sunday morning and the press in the afternoon when they get back to Dublin. Calm, considered, low key and completely professional - classic Faz.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Not sure the tight 5 thing holds when you consider 3/4 scottish locks for the WC where born in scotland. and only 2 project players in general in the tight 5, although you can argue the british vs scottish thing for some of them. Majority still born scottish, so think it is pretty clear they can produce those positions.

Ashman, Schoeman, Nel, Skinner, Sebastian. It holds just fine, thanks.

Foreign-Born / Produced / Trained Players in 2023 Six Nations - Americas Rugby News

The 2023 Six Nations sees changes in player eligibility to that from prior years. World Rugby’s elig

www.americasrugbynews.com

 

[Booboobang]

Ashman, Schoeman, Nel, Skinner, Sebastian. It holds just fine, thanks.

Foreign-Born / Produced / Trained Players in 2023 Six Nations - Americas Rugby News

The 2023 Six Nations sees changes in player eligibility to that from prior years. World Rugby’s elig

www.americasrugbynews.com

That doesnt disagree with anything I said, so no I disagree. Schoeman and nel the only true project players, locks outside skinner all home grown and with the other gray its arguable skinner isnt even needed.

Ashman, sebastian and skinner all have scottish parents and were raised with that, so pretending they dont have any ties and are comparable to nel and schoeman is odd.

So with only 1 non native player being in the starting tight 5, yeah I think its safe to say it doesnt hold and scotland are capable of producing qualty tight 5 players. Unless you are going to say france or wales are also incapable of producing tight 5 talent as well.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

That doesnt disagree with anything I said, so no I disagree. Schoeman and nel the only true project players, locks outside skinner all home grown and with the other gray its arguable skinner isnt even needed.

Ashman, sebastian and skinner all have scottish parents and were raised with that, so pretending they dont have any ties and are comparable to nel and schoeman is odd.

So with only 1 real project player being in the starting tight 5, yeah I think its safe to say it doesnt hold and scotland are capable of producing qualty tight 5 players.

You have possibly misread kr misunderstood my post or are simply inventing things I did not say. I spoke of imports. Not project players. What aspect of a player being developed by another union being an 'import' are you failing to grasp?

Again, re-read my post. I did not say Scotland cannot produce tight 5 players, simply that they can import stronger players in those positions than Samoa can import.

If that point does not hold, then please tell us all what Samoan tight five imports you consider superior to the imports in the Scotland squad.

if you cannot, then it holds. Simple.

 

[Booboobang]

You have possibly misread kr misunderstood my post or are simply inventing things I did not say. I spoke of imports. Not project players. What aspect of a player being developed by another union being an 'import' are you failing to grasp?

Again, re-read my post. I did not say Scotland cannot produce tight 5 players, simply that they can import stronger players in those positions than Samoa can import.

If that point does not hold, then please tell us all what Samoan tight five imports you consider superior to the imports in the Scotland squad.

if you cannot, then it holds. Simple.

It doesnt hold because it infers that scotland only win that battle because of imports and are thus relient on it, wich with 4 of their starting 5 being home grown doesnt hold. At all.

Scotlands native born players are still better without this imported nonsense than samoas wich are generally imported.

As for bette imports, you really going to straight faced say sebastien a fringe player is better than Ala'alatoa. Really odd take.

 

[AlRums]

Ashman, Schoeman, Nel, Skinner, Sebastian. It holds just fine, thanks.

Foreign-Born / Produced / Trained Players in 2023 Six Nations - Americas Rugby News

The 2023 Six Nations sees changes in player eligibility to that from prior years. World Rugby’s elig

www.americasrugbynews.com

So Ireland have more qualified by residency than Scotland and England has the same number as Scotland (in the article they names Mako V but missed Billy V)

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

It doesnt hold because it infers that scotland only win that battle because of imports and are thus relient on it, wich with 4 of their starting 5 being home grown doesnt hold. At all.

Scotlands native born players are still better without this imported nonsense than samoas wich are generally imported.

As for bette imports, you really going to straight faced say sebastien a fringe player is better than a formed all black in Ala'alatoa. Really odd take.

Okay, so Samoa may have 1x stronger tight five import and Scotland have 4. My point therefore holds.

I gave other reasons why Scotland may be favourites against Samoa other than importer tight five players. The person I was actually replying to seemed to think I wasn't talking complete rot (though they may not agree) and 'liked' my post. Then you came along!

You may want to refrain from drawing inferences from my posts because they appear to routinely be wide of the mark. By all means, if something in one of my posts isn't clear to you then feel free to ask.

 

[Booboobang]

So Ireland have more qualified by residency than Scotland and England has the same number as Scotland (in the article they names Mako V but missed Billy V)

I think its a sliding scale, I think what scotland did with dempsey should not be allowed to happen. But if your parents from that country I can believe you atleast feel some affinity for that nation. Britain makes that weird, since its 4 countries that is actually one country so lines are blurred.

I also dont think you can take a hard line of, developed in this country, thats the nationality, since all those PI kids going to france to improve their family outcomes are suddenly the same as born and bred french when its not true they are doing it for familial stability not out of some patriotic tinge.

Dont like project players personally but the rules are the rules and untill they are changed nations will always use it, france the best developers on the planet have as many as scotland.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

So Ireland have more qualified by residency than Scotland and England has the same number as Scotland (in the article they names Mako V but missed Billy V)

I dare say they do. Was Billy V in the 6N squad? I don't know - the guy who wrote the article is usually very thorough.

My posts here are not ragging on Scotland. I intentionally leave that for the elgibility catch-all thread

That way folk who do not like those discussions can avoid them as they don't pollute the rest of the forum. I think a few of us discussed that article in the eligibility thread back in the day. I personally find them very interesting.

 

[Booboobang]

Okay, so Samoa may have 1x stronger tight five import and Scotland have 4. My point therefore holds.

I gave other reasons why Scotland may be favourites against Samoa other than importer tight five players. The person I was actually replying to seemed to think I wasn't talking complete rot (though they may not agree) and 'liked' my post. Then you came along!

You may want to refrain from drawing inferences from my posts because they appear to routinely be wide of the mark. By all means, if something in one of my posts isn't clear to you then feel free to ask.

You want me to run the list? Most of samoan starting pack is not samoan born. There is actually a more interesting point there of if samoa was funded to teh level of scotland would their retained native population that plays for other nations beat scotland? Since currently they have the players left over from NZ and aus taking their pick.

I dont think thats wide of the mark, you say scotland would be able to import stronger players, when most of scotlands tight 5 is native born and most of samoas is not. So the theory doesnt hold.

I came along because I found the discussion interesting and think it does disservice to the quality of scotlands native born core to talk about imports that dont even get a game if the team is at full strength outside a prop.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

England has the same number as Scotland (in the article they names Mako V but missed Billy V)

England has 2, Scotland has 3
They're mixing up Mako and Billy, Mako isn't in the squad

Scotland having 21 non-homegrown players is the bigger headline, though - England have 1

 

[AlRums]

I dare say they do. Was Billy V in the 6N squad? I don't know - the guy who wrote the article is usually very thorough.

My posts here are not ragging on Scotland. I intentionally leave that for the elgibility catch-all thread

That way folk who do not like those discussions can avoid them as they don't pollute the rest of the forum. I think a few of us discussed that article in the eligibility thread back in the day. I personally find them very interesting.

Well he claimed Ruaridh McConnochie who has never actually been capped (yet) for Scotland

 

[Booboobang]

England has 2, Scotland has 3
They're mixing up Mako and Billy, Mako isn't in the squad

Scotland having 21 non-homegrown players is the bigger headline, though - England have 1

Do you not think GB being 1 country has a lot to do with that though? people move around all the time in the isles and just from pure numbers scotland are obviously going to pick more players with scotish heritage due to population numbers. Maybe not as extreme as that but still. Feels like when you have 1 country split in 4 the line blurs.

Where is the line? Born in that country but not trained there? easily have players like Rodd who self identifies as english but would have to play for scotland? Trained in that country? In wich case you have PI kids imported to french academies who do it for their family back home being project players but just picked earlier because of economics.

Personally my only hard line is project players, the Dempsey (worst of all), ribbans, DVM etc... but get its not a black and white. Anyway will ahve to join in on the eligibility thread some time since this isnt the place for it I guess.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Do you not think GB being 1 country has a lot to do with that though? people move around all the time in the isles and just from pure numbers scotland are obviously going to pick more players with scotish heritage due to population numbers. Maybe not as extreme as that but still. Feels like when you have 1 country split in 4 the line blurs.

Where is the line? Born in that country but not trained there? easily have players like Rodd who self identifies as english but would have to play for scotland? Trained in that country? In wich case you have PI kids imported to french academies who do it for their family back home being project players but just picked earlier because of economics.

Personally my only hard line is project players, the Dempsey (worst of all), ribbans, DVM etc... but get its not a black and white. Anyway will ahve to join in on the eligibility thread some time since this isnt the place for it I guess.

I've been pretty consistent in considering rugby education to matter more than pretty much anything else,
It's why I don't mind Manu/Mako/Billy playing for England but don't like the likes of Ribbans, Heinz etc who have the passport, or whatever, but are SARU/NZRU players, not RFU ones
What's the point of international sport if it's not pitting the best players a country can produce vs the best players another country can produce?

 

[Booboobang]

I've been pretty consistent in considering rugby education to matter more than pretty much anything else,
It's why I don't mind Manu/Mako/Billy playing for England but don't like the likes of Ribbans, Heinz etc who have the passport, or whatever, but are SARU/NZRU players, not RFU ones
What's the point of international sport if it's not pitting the best players a country can produce vs the best players another country can produce?

Fair point, I guess I put a bit more weight on the nationlity and heritige part personally, but I can see where you are coming from.

I do think nationality or at least some tie to the country has to be acounted for though, or you have cases where larger unions essentially start scouting kids and the understandably taking the deal for their family liek some of the french academies. But then I guess at that point they will be there long enough to get a passport so no clear line to cut it.

Probably an issue that never gets solved.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I do think nationality or at least some tie to the country has to be acounted for though, or you have cases where larger unions essentially start scouting kids and the understandably taking the deal for their family liek some of the french academies. But then I guess at that point they will be there long enough to get a passport so no clear line to cut it.

Yeah, don't get me wrong I think eligibility rules should be far stricter than they are atm too,
Probably a discussion for another thread though