If eddie gets sacked who should be the next England coach

[Ragey Erasmus]

Eddie confirmed

Look at the statistics. Facts don't lie.

But statistics notoriously do.

 

[ncurd]

Eddie confirmed



But statistics notoriously do.

Statistics don't lie, people misinterpret them.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Statistics don't lie, people misinterpret them.

In that case, statistically speaking Eddie is the worst England coach.

 

[numbnuts]

It's a joke numbnuts

you have come in hot though

Yes a great joke. It's so hilarious I haven't stopped laughing for weeks

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Yes a great joke. It's so hilarious I haven't stopped laughing for weeks

You must be real fun at parties

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Unless he decides he's had enough we can probably take it as read that Jones will be with us until 2023. So what constitutes success for him?

The first half of his reign was overall a success. After the 2015 shambles he could hardly have failed to improve things but he got us to a RWC final via a GS and a long unbeaten run. The highs were however punctuated by 2018 and a number of poor, but winning, performances.

In this cycle we've won one 6N and then there's been this year with some pretty rank performances in between. If we buy into the 4 year plan that WT and others have mentioned then everything is geared to the RWC. And that was what Jones himself originally asked to be judged on. We'll get out of the group in 2023, so everything depends on up to 3 knockout matches. It's a couple of years out, but knowing what we do about the draw, and the state of our team and other contenders, what should we expect Jones' team to deliver? And how much do results / performances in the interim matter?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Bump.....

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The only person I would want would be Joseph

 

[Which Tyler]

No change in my opinion from 3 weeks ago.
There's no-one who's an obvious improvement, and I'm not ready for change for change's sake.

For me, he gets the Summer and the Autumn do show what he said he would (an attacking plan that isn't just to hoof it and defend further up field). If there's no sign of improvement by Christmas 2021, I'll start questioning, a bad 6N '22 and I'll call for his head.

I would add (and should have 3 weeks ago) that an abject failure to improve on attack and discipline in the autumn especially (Summer should be a training run and chance to see new faces in camp) and I may call for his head by Christmas.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

There have been some big highlights under Jones, but also some real lows - in the last 4 years he has led us to our 2 worst ever 6N finishes, which would have been wooden spoons bar the irrelevance that is Italy. Not even Robinson or Lancaster managed a 5th place. And I think it's pretty common consent that he's had the best group of players available to him since 03.

Jones was explicitly appointed to win things, not just do OK. He came with a big reputation, is on a big salary with a strong player pool and more resources than virtually anyone else. Expectations should be high. While results are his currency it's been the incoherency and inconsistency of performance that have irked many fans more.

In the Autumn I think we have TBC, Aus and SA. That has to be his last chance saloon, any later will be too close to the RWC for any successor.

 

[BPM]

The only person I would want would be Joseph

Why though? I mean what has he actually achieved that should really make him a genuine contender for the England job?

He's definitely promising, but is the England job is (or at least should be) one of the biggest jobs in rugby. I'm not sure Joseph is at that level yet.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Why though? I mean what has he actually achieved that should really make him a genuine contender for the England job?

He's definitely promising, but is the England job is (or at least should be) one of the biggest jobs in rugby. I'm not sure Joseph is at that level yet.

what has any coach achieved that is up too the England job standards?

I think part of the thing that makes International coaching tricky is that club record can mean nothing.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Why though? I mean what has he actually achieved that should really make him a genuine contender for the England job?

He's definitely promising, but is the England job is (or at least should be) one of the biggest jobs in rugby. I'm not sure Joseph is at that level yet.

i mean, you took Jones from Japan and Joseph is in the same situation, the only real difference is Eddie had already coached Aussie, 16 years ago, and some say that was the start of their downward spiral, they havent won the Bledisloe since

my biggest annoyance would be Joseph would probably poach away Tony Brown and i wouldn't like that

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think we need to look past one person and get a team of coaches in. The reason that Eddie is failing is he doesn't have a trusted person to tell him he's being stupid with selections, tactics, use of bench etc. Why not get a Baxter and Lam combo or something (my first two favourite names btw), I just think single people without a strong team get lost in their own stupidity.

Maybe that's down to the players as well but felt what I have read he doesn't let them disagree with him which is very worrying, no one is right all the time. Case in point our performances getting worse since the WC and Jones doing the opposite of what we actually need to improve.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Break clause means it wouldn't necessarily be too expensive to change.

England's step backwards puts Eddie Jones's approach in the spotlight

Woeful Six Nations campaign has raised questions about head coach’s ability to continue to get the best out of his squad

www.theguardian.com

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Combo head coaches never worked unless said coaches have worked together before and know each other extremely well.

 

[Which Tyler]

what has any coach achieved that is up too the England job standards?

I think part of the thing that makes International coaching tricky is that club record can mean nothing.

Eddie has coached 3 teams to the RWC final, 1 of them winning it (albeit as 1st assistant).
Much as we don't like it, Eddie's job is assessed on annual results, with the RWC being the only shorter timeframe for judgement.

So if Eddie isn't good enough, then we need a coach who's reached more than 3 RWC finals, won at least 1 RWC, or has an international coaching record better than Eddie's 76.5% (49 from 64) with England.
Alternatively, you could argue that Eddie is being sacked due to results over then last 12 months, so the international coaching record would need to be above 70% (7 from 10). Even this would seem harsh, as England's next most successful coaches (Cooke and Rowell) managed 72% each over their time.

Talk about poisoned chalice, any coach who meets those insanely high criteria to take over, wouldn't take the job if that sort of thing doesn't count as enough credit to overcome 1 single poor tournament.


As an addition, any suggestions of Baxter or Lam will be met with utter scorn, until they've even attempted to coach a game-plan that stands any sort of chance at international level.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Eddie has coached 3 teams to the RWC final, 1 of them winning it (albeit as 1st assistant).
Much as we don't like it, Eddie's job is assessed on annual results, with the RWC being the only shorter timeframe for judgement.

So if Eddie isn't good enough, then we need a coach who's reached more than 3 RWC finals, won at least 1 RWC, or has an international coaching record better than Eddie's 76.5% (49 from 64) with England.
Alternatively, you could argue that Eddie is being sacked due to results over then last 12 months, so the international coaching record would need to be above 70% (7 from 10). Even this would seem harsh, as England's next most successful coaches (Cooke and Rowell) managed 72% each over their time.

Talk about poisoned chalice, any coach who meets those insanely high criteria to take over, wouldn't take the job if that sort of thing doesn't count as enough credit to overcome 1 single poor tournament.


As an addition, any suggestions of Baxter or Lam will be met with utter scorn, until they've even attempted to coach a game-plan that stands any sort of chance at international level.

That last statement really shows some ignorance. 'Until they've even attempted to coach a game-plan that's stands any sort of change at international level'

I mean Exeter use a game plan that is suited to Europe and the premiership, they buy and train the players for it and it works. Why would Baxter change his style to that of an international team (whatever that means) when what they do works so well? And what do you mean by a game plan that would work at international level? They operate a forward plan like the boks and that works at international level.

You could argue the same with Bristol and the all blacks plan (at a stretch), they have a plan and get the training and players for it.

What Eddie is bad at is he hasn't got a plan or a style and he doesn't pick players for it. He sticks with players but doesn't even look at building continuously for a certain style that suits the premiership.

And to Jones there is a big argument to say that he works better in an environment when he's not left alone, he works better with strong other coaches.

 

[Which Tyler]

That last statement really shows some ignorance.

Is that the classy way of saying "I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it"?
Asking for a friend.

What Eddie is bad at is he hasn't got a plan or a style and he doesn't pick players for it. He sticks with players but doesn't even look at building continuously for a certain style that suits the premiership.

And then there's this - which is presumably a truly in-depth analysis, and showing amazing perspicuity; and not remotely hypocritical.


Out of interest - do you generally find such comments helpful in discussion, and encouraging of debate?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

2003 and 2007 are too far in the rear view mirror to be of any relevance now. All that matters is what he's done / is doing with Eng.

Autum results last year are also irrelevant - other teams were clearly experimenting while we stuck with the same old.

One phrase the press is using for his tenure is boom and bust, which is fair. No-one expects to win everything, but a clear identity / sense of what a team is trying to achieve is essential both for players and fans alike. Gatland brought that to Wal and I think he developed the style he did because it best suited the players he had, not necessarily because it was his preferred way of playing.

Don't think Steve Hanson's up to much at the moment. Might be an option for a short term project if we did decide to change pre RWC.

We can argue these points all we like, but across all sports it's pretty clear that most coaches have a shelf life after which their effectiveness wears off or the players stop listening. Jones is now in his 6th season with us and I have an inescapable feeling that point has been reached. Certainly for the current crop of senior players although they're scarcely going to come out in the press and say that.