If eddie gets sacked who should be the next England coach

[Leonormous Boozer]

In terms of time - 2 years isn't enough time for a new coach to put new processes, and new game-plan in place, tinkered to the real world and polished in time for a RWC. We're too late to do that unless promoting from within and continuing Eddie's grand plan without Eddie.
1 year is longer than you can expect a dead-cat bounce to last if it's change for change's sake. We're too early to make the most of a bounce for just providing a change.

Rassie Erasmus and Jacques Nienbar had 21 months with SA prior to the RWC. If player depth isn't a massive issue than 2 years is plenty of time for a coach to put their stamp on a team.

Joe Schmidt is another example, in autumn of 2013 he took over from Declan Kidney whose gameplan was fit for the late 2000s and he won his first two Six Nations and didn't lose a test match outside of the 6n after his first window until the World Cup QF which was because of depth issues during an injury crisis.

It's a pivotal year in terms of head coach in my opinion (2nd in the RWC Cycle) and one where you really should be showing progress. Ireland and the UK sides have questions to be answered regarding whether or not they have the right man for the job right now. EJ has a lot of credit in the bank and positive wins over Ireland and in his Autumn tests, which I'd back him to get, will be more than enough. Townsend is flattering to deceive as per, Farrell can barely plan 2 weeks into the future and it's anyone's guess whether Wales are close to where they could be or not under Pivac. Assuming there'll be summer rugby, if the problems continue throughout the next two test windows with any of them the prudent play would be to replace them and at least part of their extended backroom team.

Any later than this year and you're really only giving the new coach one Autumn Series, one 6n and world cup warm ups to prepare because the summer tours are not a time to introduce new systems with unions regularly opting for interim coaches rather than replacements if they sack post 6nations.

 

[Which Tyler]

Erasmus didn't really change anything though - he just did what South Africa have always done, and simply out-muscled everyone else.

Schmidt - I hadn't realised he had that long in the post before 2015 - but yeah, he did mange to turn a dead-cat bounce into a sustained run.

 

[Welsh Exile]

No way Townsend is going anywhere after beating England ...

As for Pivac, time will tell. As of right now, a lucky coach is a real asset.

Lucky that teams like England have bottled it you mean?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Erasmus didn't really change anything though - he just did what South Africa have always done, and simply out-muscled everyone else.

You think? SA were desperate and playing without any direction beforehand. He didn't reinvent the wheel or do anything drastic but very few coaches do or need to at international level, formation changes and different areas of focus can make massive differences. If at interview the potential new hire said he wanted England to play like NZ or Fiji you'd kick him out the door but there's many ways to play a power game while hurting teams with width and dangerous wings which is how England always excel.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

A RWC final is a hell of a lot of credit in the bank; as are some of our performances that year. Eddie has proven that he get performances such as Away to Ireland, or RWC SF again NZ. He is proven to have the capacity to do that. That counts. A lot.

2018 was poor, and visibly so for exactly the reasons Eddie told us it would be beforehand.

2021 is poor, a significant proportion of that is for exactly the reasons Eddie told us it would be beforehand (though that doesn't explain our indiscipline).
A poor run of results needs to be an actual poor run of results. Yes, we want good performance, and put more weight on that than results - but most fans don't, nor do the RFU.
Any coach deserves the chance to turn around a poor run of performances - and if it's for reasons he's explicitly told us about beforehand, then the time-frame is already set. It's not like Eddie has no idea why we're playing poorly - he explicitly told us the reason (he's got a new attack system lined up, but isn't going to put it into practice yet - partly to not show his hand, and partly because we're seeing new ref. directives, and the plan will need adjusting to that before being applied).

Robinson in contrast, had no real credit in the bank, and didn't know why we were playing badly, or what he could do about it.

We've been playing below par since January 2020 - with significant disruption from Covid; and in a way that was predicted (literally every losing RWC finalist has had a bad following year); results have started going against us for the last... 3 matches - well, 2 out of 3. Eddie has absolutely earned the right to make amends - and that doesn't mean making significant changes mid-tournament, upsetting plans, and almost certainly backfiring. For me, he gets the Summer and the Autumn do show what he said he would (an attacking plan that isn't just to hoof it and defend further up field). If there's no sign of improvement by Christmas 2021, I'll start questioning, a bad 6N '22 and I'll call for his head.

In terms of time - 2 years isn't enough time for a new coach to put new processes, and new game-plan in place, tinkered to the real world and polished in time for a RWC. We're too late to do that unless promoting from within and continuing Eddie's grand plan without Eddie.
1 year is longer than you can expect a dead-cat bounce to last if it's change for change's sake. We're too early to make the most of a bounce for just providing a change.

RFU were struggling for money before Covid stopped them allowing crowds in for rugby or concerts.



ETA: What BPM said

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, that doesn't explain a lot of what is going wrong. He explicitly said the aim was to defend hard and play a simple game as he rebuilds an attacking structure. That would be fair is we were playing a solid but unremarkable game and executing a very basic gameplan well. We aren't. Our defence has gone to pot, our discipline is atrocious and our kicking game has been laughably bad. Considering those are the areas he is supposedly focussing on, they should be a hell of a lot better than where they are now.

His reason is the same every time, he didn't prepare the players correctly. Well what IS he preparing them for if not what actually happens, and isn't getting a hold on our runaway bad discipline a number 1 priority? That is causing us more problems than anything else.

I'm not in the sack Eddie camp as he has proven he can turn it around before but eventually he has got to stop holding all his cards to his chest because then you get a situation like Joe Schmidt, remember how he was keeping everything back for the world cup and then the world cup arrived and it turned out nothing had actually been held back, what you saw is what you got.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Would be my worst nightmare Edwards taking up a job with England.

Trust me it would be nothing compared to how we felt when he ended up the wrong side of Offa's Dyke.

I think making a World Cup final is more credit in the bank than a long winning streak.

2018 was crap but showed that he can and will re-invent the team to good effect. He has at least enough credit to show he can do that.

The RFU already had well-publicised financial issues before the pandemic. I can confidently assume they're not going to be in a better position now..

Disagree.

Group stages were par - with Arg beating themselves with an early red. No-ones fault Fra didn't happen but that was a potential banana skin avoided. Knockout was good, very good, dire. So maybe a little credit in the bank but really not enough to dine out on.

The winning streak at least showed we had a reasonable mentality over a sustained period although we were lucky to get away with several poor performances which sure enough subsequently translated to results.

I just don't buy the whole need for boom or bust. I remember reading an article about one of the US airlines a while back - they targeted the same growth target year on year irrespective of market conditions and achieved it resulting in an even upward growth. Seemed unambitious in some years but brilliant when things weren't so good. Surely that's the kind of incremental year on year improvement we should be aiming for especially as this is an experienced team that it's harder to teach new tricks to.

According to the Times, since Underhill made his debut in Jun 17 Jones has capped 24 new players who average less than 2 appearances each in starting XVs. Make of that what you will - maybe he didn't like what he saw or maybe Plan A is just to stick with the tried and trusted.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

NGL seeing all those names on the list makes me dread who could be the next coach.
Mark McCall - What's he won when Sarries hasn't cheated?
Rob Baxter - Just lol
Paul Gustard - Even more LOL
Dean Richards - Dude doesn't even coach, and is just as bad in terms of favourites
Robbie Deans - Interesting but zero chance he wants to be anywhere near International rugby again.
Leon McDonald - Yes head coach of the super rugby powerhouse that is the Blues......
Scott Robertson - Interesting prospect but IDK if I could trust a coach who has only coached 1 team
Steve Diamond - He will be limited in how many South Africans he can bring in.
Richard Cockerill - Only thing coaching at Edinburgh has seem to change is he knows who to bring in south Africans
Stuart Lancaster - Maybe to team PE
Pat Lam - Can you afford to play rugby like Bristol does at International level? Imagine a Pat Lam team v the 2019 South African team.


IDK 1 name that sticks out for me as an actually interesting signing would be Jamie Joseph

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can you afford to play rugby like Bristol does at International level?

I see what you did there

I wouldn't want Lam, solely because he's an arsehole
At least with guys like Diamond, Cockerill, EJ etc. they wear their arsehole on their sleeves (lol), Lam is way more two faced in his slagging off of officials and opposition


Plus, as above, I don't think his style would translate to international level - I could see him with someone like Fiji or Samoa who are happy to go all out attack at all times, but can't see him coaching sides through an arm wrestle

 

[big ginger 8]

Think in the two places Lam has had most of his success (Connacht and Bristol) it's taken three years to get them playing the style he wants with success. That's with day to day access as well. Would certainly be a worry for me in an international coach.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Think in the two places Lam has had most of his success (Connacht and Bristol) it's taken three years to get them playing the style he wants with success. That's with day to day access as well. Would certainly be a worry for me in an international coach.

Apart from Ian Madigan and one or two more in Bristol he didn't exactly have world class players with either for those seasons though. He's definitely someone I'd like to have a shot for Ireland some day, seems like he's progressed to a point where international rugby is the next step.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

NGL seeing all those names on the list makes me dread who could be the next coach.
Mark McCall - What's he won when Sarries hasn't cheated?
Rob Baxter - Just lol
Paul Gustard - Even more LOL
Dean Richards - Dude doesn't even coach, and is just as bad in terms of favourites
Robbie Deans - Interesting but zero chance he wants to be anywhere near International rugby again.
Leon McDonald - Yes head coach of the super rugby powerhouse that is the Blues......
Scott Robertson - Interesting prospect but IDK if I could trust a coach who has only coached 1 team
Steve Diamond - He will be limited in how many South Africans he can bring in.
Richard Cockerill - Only thing coaching at Edinburgh has seem to change is he knows who to bring in south Africans
Stuart Lancaster - Maybe to team PE
Pat Lam - Can you afford to play rugby like Bristol does at International level? Imagine a Pat Lam team v the 2019 South African team.


IDK 1 name that sticks out for me as an actually interesting signing would be Jamie Joseph

McCall has though managed to keep a big squad of big egos pretty tight, happy and performing. The culture among the players wanting to play for each other etc has always seemed very strong which is something money can't buy. His handling of Skelton - shape up or you don't play - was exemplary. It wasn't just that he was unafraid to call out Skelton, but that he drew the right response from the player.

I could totally see him in a managerial / media role with on field coaching left to others.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

 

[Which Tyler]

The Burgess ploy is finally paying off!

 

[BPM]

Lucky that teams like England have bottled it you mean?

Sorry but without the red cards and Gauzere, there's a reasonably good chance you're 0 from 3.

None of those three teams 'bottled it'. Enjoy your luck while it lasts.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Nah england bottled it.
We got back into the game and we bottled it in the second half.

 

[Oliver Madden]

Would be interesting if EJ was sacked as to who we we would go after. My pick would probably be Scott Robertson, he took over a good Crusaders team and made them into an outstanding team with a few little tweaks. I think that is the job description with this current England team. I don't think we would get him though because I think the NZRU are probably lining him up for the ABs job if Foster gets the sack.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Sorry but without the red cards and Gauzere, there's a reasonably good chance you're 0 from 3.

None of those three teams 'bottled it'. Enjoy your luck while it lasts.

We'll never know how things would've gone at the end of the day. I don't really see the red cards as lucky, we're not smashing into players heads at the breakdown.

You pulled it back to 24-24 with just under 20mins left and your discipline went to **** (it was pretty **** all game to be fair). We played well in that last bit to be fair but you did kind of bottle it.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sorry but without the red cards and Gauzere, there's a reasonably good chance you're 0 from 3.

None of those three teams 'bottled it'. Enjoy your luck while it lasts.

POM definitely bottled it, he'd lost composure far before the red. It looks like it cost him his international career too... Well, a man can hope.

 

[BPM]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'bottle it'. To me, bottling it is a polite way of saying 'sh*tting yourself'. We did that in the RWC final. Last weekend it was a case of losing our heads/a loss composure rather than fear/being overawed.

 

[McTallshort]

We would probably end up with ******* Gatland