How confident are you about your country in the World Cup?

[Ragey Erasmus]

Gr8 b8 m8.

I think people are just tired of the same old diatribes some English posters go on. If ya can't beat em', discredit them..

Except for the fact there was no such diatribe. The closest we had was a tongue in cheek comment I made and then a bunch of kiwis flew of the handle going completely bonkers in their defence of McCaw. Most criticism of McCaw cheating isn't that he does it, it's the perception that he is allowed to get away with things that other players would not because of his reputation. Sort of like when refrees let a home team get away with things. It was a similar situation with the Welsh scrum. It was brilliant but there was a lot of cheating going on and for a while, the Welsh scrum was able to get away with blatant infringements because they had a reputation as great scrummagers. Then people started to see the stats of how Welsh scrums collapse more than any others and now the situation has quite different. Of course other scrums cheated during this time too but the perception was that the Welsh scrum could get away with it.

 

[goodNumber10]

That's being overly reductive. If you are getting away with things due to referees interpreting it as legal play, you are not in fact cheating. It's why rugby has laws rather than rules. You are working within interpretations. No one says an entire backline cheats when they employ rush defenses while being offside. They work within what is allocated to them from the referees and adjust accordingly. It is amusing that McCaw is targeted time and again for this - as if every player doesn't contest for the ball to the extent they assume won't be penalized. It just seems the complaints are born out of bitter frustration that results from continually losing.


Exactly this.

I'm not interesed in the McCaw argument, i'm interested in the mindset people approach the game from. If you go out with the mental intent to bend the laws to suit you are cheating. There is no grey area, you either advocate it, in which case don't complain when it's done to you, or you object to it.

The fundamental point is if everyone plays to the laws you don't need to cheat, it's a self perpetuating problem, one person cheats others need to cheat to better them...

If McCaw (as an example) goes out thinking well the ref lets me come in from the side, so i will do that - it's negative and cheating, hiding behind the ref doesn't not make it cheating. Standing up on the wrong side of the ruck in the 9's path is cheating, laying 1 second longer on the wrong side of the ruck because one ref doesn't blow it is negative play and cheating.

By placing all the blame on the ref for not policing it sufficiently you are advocating cheating.

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So... somebody works out of the limits of the law and gets away with it, but he is not a cheater, he is the explorer of the vast lands outside the regulation, he is the Magallanes of rugby, discovering wider horizonss for all intrepid flankers in the world.

Jesus man.

exactly this.

Just because a ref lets a player cheat doesn't make it not cheating.

 

[dullonien]

That's the laws of rugby for you gn10. Nowhere on the law does it state a precise number of seconds a player is allowed to lye on the wrong side before it becomes illegal. Nowhere does it give a precise angle for what's called 'ths gate'. A lot of the finer points of rugby allows for a degree of interpretation, and each ref interprets them slightly differently.

So I personally don't see a player getting away with what the ref deems acceptable as cheating. It's just part of rugby, and McCaw has been brilliant at exploiting it for years.

So I agree with the kiwis here, labelling him a cheat is a little unfair.

 

[goodNumber10]

That's the laws of rugby for you gn10. Nowhere on the law does it state a precise number of seconds a player is allowed to lye on the wrong side before it becomes illegal. Nowhere does it give a precise angle for what's called 'ths gate'. A lot of the finer points of rugby allows for a degree of interpretation, and each ref interprets them slightly differently.

So I personally don't see a player getting away with what the ref deems acceptable as cheating. It's just part of rugby, and McCaw has been brilliant at exploiting it for years.

So I agree with the kiwis here, labelling him a cheat is a little unfair.

I'm not labeling him a cheat.

I'm saying if you knowingly linger/make no attempt to move away after the tackle, come in form the side, stick your leg around the side, play outside of the rules because the Ref doesn't blow it up then you are a cheat.

Just because a ref doesn't catch you doesn't make it legal, and just because it's a "law" as opposed to a "rule" doesn't mean it's open to being bent to your will, Law doesn't mean open to interpretation - an illegal act is an illegal act. If you punch someone in the face and the ref doesn't see it and you don't get done for it does that make it ok? no it doesn't.

Cheating is Cheating regardless of who is doing it, and Rugby is a game of honour. You can't complain about poor reffing, or anything else if you condone cheating.

 

[dullonien]

I'm not labeling him a cheat.

I'm saying if you knowingly linger/make no attempt to move away after the tackle, come in form the side, stick your leg around the side, play outside of the rules because the Ref doesn't blow it up then you are a cheat.

Just because a ref doesn't catch you doesn't make it legal, and just because it's a "law" as opposed to a "rule" doesn't mean it's open to being bent to your will, Law doesn't mean open to interpretation - an illegal act is an illegal act. If you punch someone in the face and the ref doesn't see it and you don't get done for it does that make it ok? no it doesn't.

Cheating is Cheating regardless of who is doing it, and Rugby is a game of honour. You can't complain about poor reffing, or anything else if you condone cheating.

But many of the laws aren't black and white. Punching someone in the face is a black and white illegal act. Most laws at the brake down have a degree of interpretation about them, hence why every referee officiates them slightly differently. Some will favour the attacking team in order to help the game flow, others will favour the defending team.



If you analysed every phase of play in a rugby match, I'm pretty sure you could find a reason to give a penalty, be it a crooked feed at a scrum, an attacking player hanging onto the ball on the floor for a split second while help arrives, offside in the defensive line, entering the ruck from the side (even marginally), both by the attacking and defending players etc. Etc. Etc.



It would make every player who plays the game, be it amateur or professional a cheat following your logic. Bending the laws is part of rugby. It's part of what makes it the intricate sport it is.



The reasons McCaw has been singled out so much during his career, is because he's been so damn good, and because he plays for such a dominant team in the all blacks.

 

[goodNumber10]

The laws are black and white, how people interpret them aren't, there is a difference.

Ergo if you set out to bend and exploit the laws in a manner that breaks them as you advocate you are a cheat and perpetuate the problem.

Rugby is meant to be a game of honour and fair play, why is everyone so happy to condone cheating as part of the game.

 

[Peat]

Dull, are you saying we're not cheats?

Because I have to say, I reckon 90% of all the players I have ever seen or played with were intentional cheats and the other 10% just didn't know the game well enough to do so and therefore only accidental cheats. As you say, "bending the laws" is part of the game - since when is that not cheating? At best, it's a really fine semantic line that ignores a lot of outright breakages and at worst, it's just a prettier name for it.

Saying its mostly about interpretation is bull as well, I'm sorry. Yes, there's a lot of it in the game, but when a ref allows an opposition side to be 5 yards offside or to run around formed rucks and enter from the opposition side or the scrum-half to feed it into the no 8's feet, it's not an interpretation, it's a mistake. And rugby refs make a lot of mistakes. They have too much information to deal with.

Which is why the game is full of cheats. We all know that cheating is in fact a fairly risk-free endeavour and everyone else is doing it. And I'm puzzled as to why anyone would say otherwise tbh. I know it's nicer to talk about being 'streetwise' and 'playing the ref', but basically what we actually mean is 'work out the best risk:reward ratios in the various ways of cheating' and 'be really good at cheating'.

We're far from unique in that mind. Footballers cheat, hockey players cheat, cricketers cheat, basically in every sport where there's a sufficient quantity of player to official to make it safe they cheat. Why on earth would we be any different when our level of complexity in rules, low numbers of officials and high number of players probably makes for the safest environment?

 

[Feicarsinn]

The laws are black and white, how people interpret them aren't, there is a difference.

Ergo if you set out to bend and exploit the laws in a manner that breaks them as you advocate you are a cheat and perpetuate the problem.

Rugby is meant to be a game of honour and fair play, why is everyone so happy to condone cheating as part of the game.

Easily said on an internet forum, but when you're on the pitch you'll use nearly advantage you can (within decency.) Winning is better than any other feeling, you've got to do what you've got to do.

 

[Kiwi_]

If anything, AB's post-2013 are better than 2011: already made the big thing, they're mature, competitive and extremely complete, probably the best team in rugby history. Still I don't think they are going to win.

My money is on Ireland. They're super strong, they play at home, and as it's being said during a couple of times now "is the best team in irish rugby history". Basically, they are the strongest team in britain in british world cup, that makes them champions in my head. More or less.

And there it is, the stupidest thing I've read all day. Ireland are now playing at home (England/Wales) and are now British!!

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Except for the fact there was no such diatribe. The closest we had was a tongue in cheek comment I made and then a bunch of kiwis flew of the handle going completely bonkers in their defence of McCaw. Most criticism of McCaw cheating isn't that he does it, it's the perception that he is allowed to get away with things that other players would not because of his reputation. Sort of like when refrees let a home team get away with things. It was a similar situation with the Welsh scrum. It was brilliant but there was a lot of cheating going on and for a while, the Welsh scrum was able to get away with blatant infringements because they had a reputation as great scrummagers. Then people started to see the stats of how Welsh scrums collapse more than any others and now the situation has quite different. Of course other scrums cheated during this time too but the perception was that the Welsh scrum could get away with it.

M8 people are just sick and tired of pommy b0llocks, when you don't win, it's cheats this, cheats that. In all your sports which you don't win anything in, it's the same, then finally you admit your national teams rubbish and destroy them in the media, barely giving any credit to the other quality nations. Pommy sport, media and fanbase is rotten and sick. Seeing it from an outside perspective you really get a good view. Living in Queenstown virtually every single Pom I meet who knows anything about Rugby will instantly call the AB's cheats. All the French I met, LOVE the AB's and the Irish, apart from the 2013 game. The most common thing we get from the Poms is them going on and on about 2012. Fact is we've beaten you 5 times in a row and are better in general and yet all you can come out with is McCaw cheats then say it's a compliment, then act like a victim when people call you out, even when you have players like Tom Woods who kill the ball every chance he gets.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

M8 people are just sick and tired of pommy b0llocks, when you don't win, it's cheats this, cheats that. In all your sports which you don't win anything in, it's the same, then finally you admit your national teams rubbish and destroy them in the media, barely giving any credit to the other quality nations. Pommy sport, media and fanbase is rotten and sick. Seeing it from an outside perspective you really get a good view. Living in Queenstown virtually every single Pom I meet who knows anything about Rugby will instantly call the AB's cheats. All the French I met, LOVE the AB's and the Irish, apart from the 2013 game. The most common thing we get from the Poms is them going on and on about 2012. Fact is we've beaten you 5 times in a row and are better in general and yet all you can come out with is McCaw cheats then say it's a compliment, then act like a victim when people call you out, even when you have players like Tom Woods who kill the ball every chance he gets.

The only thing that anyone is sick of is people like you digging up tired old nationalist sterotypes. You've done more whinging than any "pom" here yet you wish to pontificate about how much worse we are. Quite frankly, you have problems and that is you personally, not Kiwis as a whole. Did an Englishman rob you or something? You seem to have a totally indefensible seething hatred that really is the sign of an unbalanced individual. Sort yourself out. The nonsense you are spewing is on the same level as stuff I've seen written on Welsh nationalist boards about the English. Grow up.

 

[Kiwi_]

The only thing that anyone is sick of is people like you digging up tired old nationalist sterotypes. You've done more whinging than any "pom" here yet you wish to pontificate about how much worse we are. Quite frankly, you have problems and that is you personally, not Kiwis as a whole. Did an Englishman rob you or something? You seem to have a totally indefensible seething hatred that really is the sign of an unbalanced individual. Sort yourself out. The nonsense you are spewing is on the same level as stuff I've seen written on Welsh nationalist boards about the English. Grow up.

Stereotypes don't exist for no reason. Look at your sports media and look at your hooligan fans in sports. It speaks for itself.

 

[Unol Daleithiau]

Did an Englishman rob you or something?

The English robbed a good bit of the world out of a significant amount of things. IIRC.

 

[Peat]

I'm sorry, are we here to talk rugby or what? Think some of you could do with this advice:

 

[goodNumber10]

M8 people are just sick and tired of pommy b0llocks, when you don't win, it's cheats this, cheats that. In all your sports which you don't win anything in, it's the same, then finally you admit your national teams rubbish and destroy them in the media, barely giving any credit to the other quality nations. Pommy sport, media and fanbase is rotten and sick. Seeing it from an outside perspective you really get a good view. Living in Queenstown virtually every single Pom I meet who knows anything about Rugby will instantly call the AB's cheats. All the French I met, LOVE the AB's and the Irish, apart from the 2013 game. The most common thing we get from the Poms is them going on and on about 2012. Fact is we've beaten you 5 times in a row and are better in general and yet all you can come out with is McCaw cheats then say it's a compliment, then act like a victim when people call you out, even when you have players like Tom Woods who kill the ball every chance he gets.

Stereotypes don't exist for no reason. Look at your sports media and look at your hooligan fans in sports. It speaks for itself.

 

[marianodan]

This will probably be the most unexciting WC ever from a Pumas point of view. Fixed to 2nd place in the pool and having to likely meet Ireland in QF... I hope for them to have peaked just a bit earlier than needed, then we have a chance. But only if this time our boys manage to exit the pool stage injury-less (and I'm looking at you, Lobbe).

 

[Kiwi_]

This will probably be the most unexciting WC ever from a Pumas point of view. Fixed to 2nd place in the pool and having to likely meet Ireland in QF... I hope for them to have peaked just a bit earlier than needed, then we have a chance. But only if this time our boys manage to exit the pool stage injury-less (and I'm looking at you, Lobbe).

Quarter finals is still a good result for Argentina, either Australia, Wales or England aren't going to make it out of the pool, besides who did you expect to beat out of one of them, or SA and Ireland?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The massive irony in this argument is that Kiwi_ is 100% wrong/looking in a mirror.
Whenever England lose, the media and the fans generally turn on the players. You'll have people calling for Lancaster to be sacked or certain players to never see an England shirt again.
On the rare occassion that the ABs lose its always the fault of the referee, or some other excuse, and they'll make sure every man and his dog is aware of it.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The massive irony in this argument is that Kiwi_ is 100% wrong/looking in a mirror.
Whenever England lose, the media and the fans generally turn on the players. You'll have people calling for Lancaster to be sacked or certain players to never see an England shirt again.
On the rare occassion that the ABs lose its always the fault of the referee, or some other excuse, and they'll make sure every man and his dog is aware of it.

True, But don't let the comments of one poster turn this thread into yet another slating thread. It's strange that Wayne Barnes or Craig Joubert hasn't been mentioned yet...

Anyways, I have a question regarding the Millenium Stadium's roof at this world cup. Will the WRU be in charge of deciding whether the roof will be opened or close or will it be the RFU or WR??

 

[French TommyGun]

I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that France is going to win the World Cup this year. After 3 and a half years of tricking everyone into think they're totally sh**t!! Lured everyone into a false sense of security and... BAM!! The Webb Ellis is as good as ours!
Pretty ballsy tactic I know!

 

[Wendigo7]

The massive irony in this argument is that Kiwi_ is 100% wrong/looking in a mirror.
Whenever England lose, the media and the fans generally turn on the players. You'll have people calling for Lancaster to be sacked or certain players to never see an England shirt again.
On the rare occassion that the ABs lose its always the fault of the referee, or some other excuse, and they'll make sure every man and his dog is aware of it.

Oh I noticed the ironing.

Don't worry though. We're going to be fantastic in the world cup and that should keep the commonwealth quiet for a while (Tongue in cheek).