Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Amiga500]

Your so naive you remind me of some russian film I was watching once, there was some young well meaning well educated girl who believed utterly that the only way her country could succeed was by following the 'party' ended up in a gulag in Siberia in the end.

So no substantive response...


Hardly surprising really, given you haven't produce a post with anything to think about in several pages....

 

[munstermuffin]

Again, if you'd bother to read the post - he has said provinces generate income of their own from sponsorship deals. To that you can add gate receipts.


But yes, each receives a grant from the IRFU annually in a similar manner to the RFU grants to the PRL clubs.

I'll put it this way. How have Connacht always survived without HEC?
Unions gain it from selling rights of AIs and various sponsorship deals. The money from TV deals was never bad as you have various packages. Believe it or not the money Sky will pay aren't exactly figures that are whole lot more.
As Amiga says gate receipts for provinces are excellent and well if you do figures on marketing of merchandise in Limerick you can walk down street and every 2nd person will probably have a piece of Munster gear. Same in Leinster and Ulster.
I'll put it this way in 2008 Adidas brought New Zealand to new Thomond. It was their 1st year with Munster. They invested â'¬10m in over 4years to Munster. From Aug 2007 to Dec 2008. Adidas were in profit. So had their whole investment plus profit back. So if they can do that you can get idea of where money is and maybe learn about what your saying before "presuming".
Like in Limerick it's probably 1 of worst hit areas from recession and struggling yet can still consistently put 20000+ in weekly for games.

 

[smartcooky]

I'll put it this way in 2008 Adidas brought New Zealand to new Thomond. It was their 1st year with Munster. They invested â'¬10m in over 4years to Munster. From Aug 2007 to Dec 2008. Adidas were in profit. So had their whole investment plus profit back. So if they can do that you can get idea of where money is and maybe learn about what your saying before "presuming".
Like in Limerick it's probably 1 of worst hit areas from recession and struggling yet can still consistently put 20000+ in weekly for games.

http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2164

Attendance: 26,500, which is capacity for Thomond. A second string All Blacks side v a second string Munster side played on a cold, mid-week night in winter, and still they packed it out! True rugby fans IMO!

For mine, the image of Rua Tipoki leading Munster's other three Kiwis, Doug Howlett, Lfemi Mafi and Jeremy Manning in challenging the All Blacks with Ka Maté, is the first thing I think of when I think of this match, and then the absolute silence of the Red Army when the All Blacks replied, is something I won't ever forget.

 

[munstermuffin]

http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2164

Attendance: 26,500, which is capacity for Thomond. A second string All Blacks side v a second string Munster side played on a cold, mid-week night in winter, and still they packed it out! True rugby fans IMO!

For mine, the image of Rua Tipoki leading Munster's other three Kiwis, Doug Howlett, Lfemi Mafi and Jeremy Manning in challenging the All Blacks with Ka Maté, is the first thing I think of when I think of this match, and then the absolute silence of the Red Army when the All Blacks replied, is something I won't ever forget.

They pack out regular games. If they had 100000 tickets for that game it still wouldn't have been enough and between 08&10 Munster gear was second only to the All Blacks in worldwide sales of rugby merchandise.

But smartcooky lets not forget it took 1 error and a Joe Rokococo when he was in his prime to win the game with only minutes left.

But on my point Munster or other provinces don't rely on HEC money. Difference is we manage money sensibly and use it realistic and crazy thing is for the difference in budgets France and England should be much better. French clubs are at home your almost defeated before you get to Clermont or Toulon but on road you never fear them and English clubs are only equal and like you'd always respect them but also always fancy chances away to them and they never really hammer us.

And crazy thing is the wages in NZ are probably lower than Ireland yet their Super teams would probably hurt most European teams and are a lot more skillful

 

[Feicarsinn]

Peddling an awful lot of lies in this thread MM. Munster average around 15,000 a week, not packing the stadium out every week and certainly not +20,000.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...dances-as-leinster-top-pile-again-229417.html

 

[munstermuffin]

Peddling an awful lot of lies in this thread MM. Munster average around 15,000 a week, not packing the stadium out every week and certainly not +20,000.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...dances-as-leinster-top-pile-again-229417.html

Not really as if you do stats Feic I'm basing it on last few years (on all games) and your averages there take in Musgrave park. No lies at all but thought someone like you would realize that Musgrave is in that.

My Maths are with 5 games in Thomond and (1 being a poor attendance vs Ospreys) average attendance this season so far is 20171 and with Sunday nearly sold off not bad

 

[munstermuffin]

Not really as if you do stats Feic I'm basing it on last few years (on all games) and your averages there take in Musgrave park. No lies at all but thought someone like you would realize that Musgrave is in that.

My Maths are with 5 games in Thomond and (1 being a poor attendance vs Ospreys) average attendance this season so far is 20171 and with Sunday nearly sold off not bad

For what it worth here's Thomond Parks Averages for last 5 years
09/10 10games - 24570
10/11 14games - 21766
11/12 11games - 22141
12/13 11games - 18100
13/14 5 games so far averaging 20171
Add in Sunday will possibly be sellout

 

[Peat]

A union having control over every aspect isn't viable. What if, in the case of the WRU, the union doesn't care about regional rugby? They make it their mission to put WRU profits and success first. Regions are there solely to put players into the national side, and that is changing.

In this case, the WRU don't care about an aspect they don't fully control. One suspects that if they were, with losses and profits showing up on their balance sheet and with no one else to blame, their attitude would be different.

There is not a shortage of totally dominant Unions doing the right thing by their domestic game. Where ever private stakeholders and the unions exist in partnership there has been strife. I don't see how the real life examples of the various models of running rugby in a country comes out as saying a totally or mainly dominant union isn't viable.

 

[smartcooky]

In this case, the WRU don't care about an aspect they don't fully control. One suspects that if they were, with losses and profits showing up on their balance sheet and with no one else to blame, their attitude would be different.

There is not a shortage of totally dominant Unions doing the right thing by their domestic game. Where ever private stakeholders and the unions exist in partnership there has been strife. I don't see how the real life examples of the various models of running rugby in a country comes out as saying a totally or mainly dominant union isn't viable.

The type of private model that England and France have just would not work here. We simply don't have enough rich individuals interested enough in rugby to own all of the 14 Provincial teams. So, without the NZRU, we would have no ITM Cup, and that would be an absolute disaster for rugby in this country.

What we have is the NZRU in partnership and in sponsorship with private companies. The NZRU contract all the pro players for Super Rugby, and this in turn keeps the ITM Cup afloat. While the NZRU is not mega-rich, it did come through the 2007-08 GFC in a lot better relative shape than most Unions. They still have $52m in cash reserves and turned an operating surplus last year of $3.2m (on the back for five years of consecutive operating deficits due mainly to the GFC). Those figures might not sound like much, but they are very big for a Union based in a small economy like NZ. Now with Adidas and AIG, the NZRU has the two most valuable rugby sponsorships in the world.

The NZRU has seen the way private clubs are in constant conflict with their National Unions in England and France, and seen how they continually hold the Unions to ransom for release of players, and they want no part of such a system. One of the major reasons why they don't pick players based in Europe (aside from the fact that they think the standards of play there aren't high enough), is that they do not want to be beholden to clubs over player releases.

What is happening now with the ERC is a major reason why we won't have a bar of private ownership here. And that leads me to an idea, probably a crazy impractical one, but, what the hell...

Perhaps the NZRU ought offer the IRFU and/or the WRU to form a self contained Conference in Super Rugby. Allow the Saffas to have their sixth team, let the Japanese have the sixth team in the Aussie Conference, and have an Argentinian team playing in New Zealand (a la the Pampas XV). I'd be happy for them to base themselves in Nelson for their home games!!

The Gaelic Conference could be Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys, Cardiff, Scarlets.

 

[Amiga500]

Perhaps the NZRU ought offer the IRFU and/or the WRU to form a self contained Conference in Super Rugby. Allow the Saffas to have their sixth team, let the Japanese have the sixth team in the Aussie Conference, and have an Argentinian team playing in New Zealand (a la the Pampas XV). I'd be happy for them to base themselves in Nelson for their home games!!

The Gaelic Conference could be Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys, Cardiff, Scarlets.

Erm, a bit too much travelling?

[besides, it omits the Scots and Italians - any solution to this mess must include them in some form or another.]

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Perhaps the NZRU ought offer the IRFU and/or the WRU to form a self contained Conference in Super Rugby. Allow the Saffas to have their sixth team, let the Japanese have the sixth team in the Aussie Conference, and have an Argentinian team playing in New Zealand (a la the Pampas XV). I'd be happy for them to base themselves in Nelson for their home games!!

The Gaelic Conference could be Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys, Cardiff, Scarlets.

From a rugby point of view, it would be very interesting. The biggest factor would be differences in time zones and cutting out Scotland/Italy but it raises some interesting points about Japan in particular.

Say the 2019 RWC in Japan is a roaring success. Flight times from Australia and New Zealand to Japan are better than they are to South Africa. Time zones are also more suitable. If a couple of Japanese teams pay as much in terms of commercial deals as the current SA arrangement, could there be a realignment? SA moves to the European calendar and joins the ERC/RCC/whatever competition takes place there with Japan, Australia and New Zealand aligning to a new competition.

I think the season's north and south of the equator will align or come closer together before too long. The players want it as seen by the coordinated press releases by all major players unions not too long ago. If that happens, we could end up with a meaningful World Club Championships. The best of Europe, Africa, Asia/Australasia, South America playing off could equal big money. As Saracens' Nigel Wray said in an interview just a few days ago, money is king and rugby will adjust to what TV wants. If TV wants club rugby to go global, PRL and LNR especially will push for it.

 

[munstermuffin]

From a rugby point of view, it would be very interesting. The biggest factor would be differences in time zones and cutting out Scotland/Italy but it raises some interesting points about Japan in particular.

Say the 2019 RWC in Japan is a roaring success. Flight times from Australia and New Zealand to Japan are better than they are to South Africa. Time zones are also more suitable. If a couple of Japanese teams pay as much in terms of commercial deals as the current SA arrangement, could there be a realignment? SA moves to the European calendar and joins the ERC/RCC/whatever competition takes place there with Japan, Australia and New Zealand aligning to a new competition.

I think the season's north and south of the equator will align or come closer together before too long. The players want it as seen by the coordinated press releases by all major players unions not too long ago. If that happens, we could end up with a meaningful World Club Championships. The best of Europe, Africa, Asia/Australasia, South America playing off could equal big money. As Saracens' Nigel Wray said in an interview just a few days ago, money is king and rugby will adjust to what TV wants. If TV wants club rugby to go global, PRL and LNR especially will push for it.

In a way though it could be viable. And the Japanese club game has got money and would be competitive. As you say the time zone could be an issue but if done right It could be dealt with

 

[Amiga500]

As Saracens' Nigel Wray said in an interview just a few days ago, money is king and rugby will adjust to what TV wants.

The bit in bold.

Is that a good thing?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

What TV wants is the best product possible with the best teams. A meaningful World Club Championships would appeal to BT/Sky/Fox/BeIn/Canal+ and more. It should look to exploit every possible opportunity to increase it's finances. At international level it has exhausted most of it's opportunities through the World Cup and tesat rugby overkill. The chance to gain much more revenue with innovative product is higher in club rugby. If the Unions can exploit this, it's a great thing.

 

[Amiga500]

What TV wants is the best product possible with the best teams.

Thus centralising the best players around relatively few teams located in relatively few areas.

A meaningful World Club Championships would appeal to BT/Sky/Fox/BeIn/Canal+ and more. It should look to exploit every possible opportunity to increase it's finances. At international level it has exhausted most of it's opportunities through the World Cup and tesat rugby overkill. The chance to gain much more revenue with innovative product is higher in club rugby.

Yes, it would increase income and revenue. That is a given.

But that is not the same as being good for the sport.

If the Unions can exploit this, it's a great thing.

Why is it a great thing?

Hypothetically - If TV says "we want a 10 team worldwide competition and we want the following teams in it":

1 Saracens
2 Leicester
3 Racing Metro
4 Toulouse
5 Crusaders
6 Chiefs
7 Bulls
8 Lions
9 Waratahs
10 Celtic Nations (playing in Cardiff)


Would you be a happy camper? Would you f**k.

While the hypothetical scenario I present where you lose high level club rugby on your doorstep is unlikely to pass as Leinster and Dublin is one of the biggest draws in Europe, the increased centralisation of players and money to meet the demands of TV means others will lose out.

Is that good for the sport?

IMO no.

 

[munstermuffin]

What TV wants is the best product possible with the best teams. A meaningful World Club Championships would appeal to BT/Sky/Fox/BeIn/Canal+ and more. It should look to exploit every possible opportunity to increase it's finances. At international level it has exhausted most of it's opportunities through the World Cup and tesat rugby overkill. The chance to gain much more revenue with innovative product is higher in club rugby. If the Unions can exploit this, it's a great thing.

only issue Snoop is you'll have PRL and LNR unhappy as they're not in charge or English might complain if they are not seen as a big team in it.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@Amiga500
I'm saying a knockout World Club Championships controlled by the Unions is a good idea. You're arguing about a World Club League. They're two completely different things.

Try not to swear when making a point.

 

[Amiga500]

Try not to swear when making a point.

OK mum. :lol:

I'm saying a knockout World Club Championships controlled by the Unions is a good idea. You're arguing about a World Club League. They're two completely different things.

No - I'm worried that unquestionably bowing in-front of the TV altar in search of additional revenue is not a good thing for the sport. The business statistics maybe. The sporting statistics, maybe not.

It should look to exploit every possible opportunity to increase it's finances. At international level it has exhausted most of it's opportunities through the World Cup and test rugby overkill. The chance to gain much more revenue with innovative product is higher in club rugby. If the Unions can exploit this, it's a great thing.

The attitude of more money = automatically better worries me. This is not a reproach of you personally - but the general thought amongst most/many of us that increasing the money into the game has to be better for the game, without question.

We'd similar here during the big boom years - where'd that get us?

 

[ratsapprentice]

How feasible is it for each individual PRO12 country to set up their own domestic competition? (or at least re-arrange their domestic structure)
It could solve a lot of issues for Wales and Italy, potentially Scotland too. Ireland is different because of their success.

For example:

Wales pulls out of the PRO12.
The Principality Premiership is promoted as the senior domestic competition in it's place.
The WRU are granted two guaranteed places in a new Eurocup.
These places are filled with regions/franchises based on a simple ranking system within the PP.*
Or two regions are simply nominated as the senior regions - possibly East and West.
Having two senior regions would allow each team to be filled with more Welsh international players and increase the likelihood of success.
This could potentially be much more inviting to sponsors too - and if run by the WRU would allow them to strike deals directly.

A region playing in a 20 team Eurocup made up of 5 pools of four would play in at least 6 European level games and potentially 9 if they reached the final.
So a Welsh international (assuming they are fit and picked for every regional and international game) would play between 17-20 elite level games.
A cap could then be set on the overall number of games players can be involved in based on the number of Test matches in the season.
For example the WRU could decide that no player can play in more than 30 games in a year. A Welsh international could then play up to 13 games for his club side in the PP.

The larger regions would possibly help to alleviate the issues with club identity (Pontypridd fans supporting Cardiff for example) interfering with regional support.
And they could program their home games each year in order to play in their constituent crowds - "touring" effectively.

I'm just thinking aloud here, and am expecting serious critical review!

 

[gaston le gaff]

Without going into detail and also thinking out loud, why 2 places guaranteed in a new Eurocup, qualification brings better all round rugby, in life nothing is guaranteed, but everything is fought for as long as the table is reasonably even one, and please no mention of money and rich French clubs.