Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[munstermuffin]

Rats, they don't want to leave the Rabo, they want to stop being bilked of EUR3m to play in it and are at least willing to threaten to leave on the issue. That is the big issue.

Anyway - assume they leave which I'd put down as pretty unlikely - 6 from England, 6 from France, 6 from the Celtic League, 1 from Italy, or some variation thereof. Job's a good 'un.

I find it incredibly unlikely that PRL/RRW will go to the barricades and go through a far from guaranteed court action simply to have a league with each other at the cost of really annoying their unions if there's a reasonable European compromise on the table. It would also severely compromise TV deals.

That is reason. Italians want to stay in Pro12 but want their costs lowered so they can establish academies. But I'd hope its 6 from each league & max of 7 from any league but last 2 spots are Amlin and HEC winners. I thinks this way (treating Rabo as 1 nation) will benefit the Amlin a lot too and be a better competitive sight all over. Like if Leinster win HEC it doesn't bring Connacht in to HEC it brings 7th in Rabo in. If no Italian team qualifies for example they should benefit from Amlin level

 

[ratsapprentice]

I know it's currently a bargaining ploy to remove their "membership fee".

My point was/is that, as you say, even if they do leave then it's a bit of a non-event in relation to European qualification because it's an Italian team that is guaranteed a place not an Italian Pro12 team.

 

[Amiga500]

My point was/is that, as you say, even if they do leave then it's a bit of a non-event in relation to European qualification because it's an Italian team that is guaranteed a place not an Italian Pro12 team.

That is kinda the origin of much of the media argument.

The HEC was originally set up when there were 6 countries participating; now it is largely viewed (rightly or wrongly) as 3 leagues participating.

If Italy leave the Pro12, then it would probably throw the current plans for qualification into turmoil. You can be sure the FIR would not want to hand over a place if they knew there was no hope of getting it back (i.e. not getting teams into the top 6 of the Rabo).

 

[McTallshort]

That is kinda the origin of much of the media argument.

The HEC was originally set up when there were 6 countries participating; now it is largely viewed (rightly or wrongly) as 3 leagues participating.

If Italy leave the Pro12, then it would probably throw the current plans for qualification into turmoil. You can be sure the FIR would not want to hand over a place if they knew there was no hope of getting it back (i.e. not getting teams into the top 6 of the Rabo).

Thank you Amiga, thats what I was trying to explain to Rats.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't accept that.

The Italians have a guaranteed position based on the fact that they are unlikely to get one on merit and that their non-participation in the premier European tournament would hamper the game in Italy.

How does that change if they leave the Rabo?
You haven't actually explained why - you've stated that it would.

 

[Amiga500]

The Italians have a guaranteed position based on the fact that they are unlikely to get one on merit and that their non-participation in the premier European tournament would hamper the game in Italy.

Indeed. Chief number there is one.

How does that change if they leave the Rabo?
You haven't actually explained why - you've stated that it would.

They had 2 guaranteed positions prior to entering the Rabo. If they were to leave the Rabo it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to expect to retain their two places. Especially if no new qualifying format was in place at the time of their decision to leave the Rabo...



So, that leaves us with:

6 English
6 French
2 Italian
?? between the Rabo3 (Ireland/Scotland/Wales)

If its 18+2winners = 20, then that leaves 4 places between 3 nations (who between them have won 4 of the last 5 grand slams). Does anyone see that actually happening?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think the SRU and FIR had agreed in principle to reducing their number of guaranteed places to 1.

 

[munstermuffin]

Wouldn't Italian Rugby maybe benefit from having 1 team in Amlin and trying be competitive there and if they got to a QF or SF and still had something to play for come April it'd improve them hugely whole giving club rugby there a boost

 

[Amiga500]

I think the SRU and FIR had agreed in principle to reducing their number of guaranteed places to 1.

Based on the assumption they have the capacity to compete for more places.... through the Rabo.

Remove the Italian teams from the Rabo and that assumption goes out the window.

 

[Amiga500]

Wouldn't Italian Rugby maybe benefit from having 1 team in Amlin and trying be competitive there and if they got to a QF or SF and still had something to play for come April it'd improve them hugely whole giving club rugby there a boost

Not if the financial figures didn't stack up I'd guess.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You make a good point... hadn't thought about it like that!

They could of course nominate one team as their senior European team with a guaranteed place and have one team that attempts to qualify via the second tier.

Edit: Hard to separate the rumour from the speculation at this point but there seems to be a suggestion that the WRU have proposed a British and Irish League comprised of two 12 team conferences.

So essentially: Pro12 and Aviva regular seasons going into a joint playoff for B&I winner.

 

[munstermuffin]

Not if the financial figures didn't stack up I'd guess.

But figures would as FIR remain getting same revenue from ERC with extra revenue obviously further along line if they're progressing to QFs etc. add in if they are doing well attendances will increase as games will be meaningful

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Did anybody see Simon Thomas' tweet about a B&I League next year? He said that Wales, Scotland and England are on board but the Ireland remain to be convinced. Hypothetically, how would this work?

I can't imagine the Championship would allow teams from outside just be parachuted in. To buy off the Championship, 2 extra places would have to be granted in my opinion. That would give us 20 teams (2 Scottish, 4 Welsh, 14 English). At that point, those nations would have a strong hand. They call Italy's bluff about wanting to leave the Pro 12 and say off you go. The IRFU are left isolated. Their options become:

1. Be stubborn and dig in their heels hoping everyone comes around to their point of view.
2. Accept terms to join a B&I League leaving Italy isolated.
3. Look to link up with LNR and possibly FIR in an expanded Top 14 (unlikely due to LNRs new TV contract).
4. Push for the disbanding of ERC and take the RCC deal.

I've said numerous times I'm in favour of a single European league. If the Pro 12 is disbanded and all participating countries are accommodated in an expanded Top 14 or Premiership we'll be half way there by accident rather than by design. We'll have the British (or B&I) "conference" and the continental Europe (or €urozone) "conference".

 

[munstermuffin]

Did anybody see Simon Thomas' tweet about a B&I League next year? He said that Wales, Scotland and England are on board but the Ireland remain to be convinced. Hypothetically, how would this work?

I can't imagine the Championship would allow teams from outside just be parachuted in. To buy off the Championship, 2 extra places would have to be granted in my opinion. That would give us 20 teams (2 Scottish, 4 Welsh, 14 English). At that point, those nations would have a strong hand. They call Italy's bluff about wanting to leave the Pro 12 and say off you go. The IRFU are left isolated. Their options become:

1. Be stubborn and dig in their heels hoping everyone comes around to their point of view.
2. Accept terms to join a B&I League leaving Italy isolated.
3. Look to link up with LNR and possibly FIR in an expanded Top 14 (unlikely due to LNRs new TV contract).
4. Push for the disbanding of ERC and take the RCC deal.

I've said numerous times I'm in favour of a single European league. If the Pro 12 is disbanded and all participating countries are accommodated in an expanded Top 14 or Premiership we'll be half way there by accident rather than by design. We'll have the British (or B&I) "conference" and the continental Europe (or â'¬urozone) "conference".

Also how would relegation work in that?

But think that's more huff and puff as it'd be a complete U-turn from what WRU and SRU have been saying lately

 

[Largejanner]

None of this will ever work as long you have regions masquerading as clubs. Simple really.

 

[munstermuffin]

None of this will ever work as long you have regions masquerading as clubs. Simple really.

How a region is simply same as a club

 

[Largejanner]

How a region is simply same as a club

That may be the case in Ireland, but in England it means something completely different, hence the problem.
You will never get a competition that works in Europe with some countries employing the regional model and some not.

 

[dullonien]

You will never get a competition that works in Europe with some countries employing the regional model and some not.

Why out of interest?

 

[Thingimubob]

That may be the case in Ireland, but in England it means something completely different, hence the problem.
You will never get a competition that works in Europe with some countries employing the regional model and some not.

I don't really understand what you're getting at? Are we talking about the regional model having an unfair advantage over clubs? Seeing that the traditional club systems are currently financially dominating the regional/provincial setups in Wales and Ireland, surely it's the other way round? Or is that the point you were making?

 

[Largejanner]

Why out of interest?

...because England and France have viable and competitively robust domestic leagues and the other nations don`t. The Pro 12 was supposed to solve that problem, but we all know what happened. Regional rugby has produced very competitive Wales and Ireland international teams (hence its adoption by the IRFU and WRFU) but on the flipside its made a European 'club' competition unworkable.
Like I said, it`s simple.