Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[McTallshort]

Who can afford it rats? for Italy there is either a domestic league or a franchise they cannot afford both and nither can Scotland or Wales. The wages have moved on only the French and some English clubs can afford it. The current model is not to going to last and I think the Italian union understand that. 8 teams will spread the cost and the wages will be smaller and I guess most Italian internationals will move to France but they do that anyway.

 

[Amiga500]

because even the most one eyed pro 12 evangelist knows Italian rugby has not developed under the pro 12.

I guess I didn't see Italy beat France twice in the last 3 years or Ireland last year then... No sirreee. No development in Italian rugby.

 

[Amiga500]

Mate there is an angry mob led by Amiga and Smart cookey on its way to your door right now!

Why would I bother? The bait is pretty obvious.

 

[psychic duck]

I guess I didn't see Italy beat France twice in the last 3 years or Ireland last year then... No sirreee. No development in Italian rugby.

Italian rugby on the pitch has been pretty static since about 2007. What has significantly developed is their crowds though, for internationals they've sold out the San Siro and now have a 70,000 6 Nations home, that's massive considering back in 2000 around 20,000 was a good crowd for them and should bring them a good amount more revenue as well as home atmosphere.

Only problem is that other elements have struggled, domestic rugby in Italy has hardly grown at all in terms of attendances and results aren't special either, the other thing is that their junior sides are weak getting relegated from the JWC and losing to Georgia two years in a row at junior level.

 

[McTallshort]

I guess I didn't see Italy beat France twice in the last 3 years or Ireland last year then... No sirreee. No development in Italian rugby.

I guess I didnt see Treviso give up another bonus point win at home last weekend. Most of the players in that Italian team play in France so that had nothing to do with any "development" they got in the pro 12.

 

[psychic duck]

I guess I didnt see Treviso give up another bonus point win at home last weekend. Most of the players in that Italian team play in France so that had nothing to do with any "development" they got in the pro 12.

Most of that Italy team was based in Italy to be fair with the exception of the real stars like Castro and Parisse. The Rabo probably has helped more Italians game time at a higher level than the Eccelenza, though whether that has been worth 3 million whilst their junior sides are losing to Fiji and Georgia though is a different matter.

 

[Amiga500]

Italian rugby on the pitch has been pretty static since about 2007. What has significantly developed is their crowds though, for internationals they've sold out the San Siro and now have a 70,000 6 Nations home, that's massive considering back in 2000 around 20,000 was a good crowd for them and should bring them a good amount more revenue as well as home atmosphere.

Only problem is that other elements have struggled, domestic rugby in Italy has hardly grown at all in terms of attendances and results aren't special either, the other thing is that their junior sides are weak getting relegated from the JWC and losing to Georgia two years in a row at junior level.

Their economic woes cannot be helping. Getting food on the table for the family is more important than playing or watching a game eh?

[Nor would the outrageous Rabo bounty help either.]


But yeah - if the numbers aren't increasing at kid/teen/amateur level as a result of the recent activity, you've gotta worry whether the foundations are being built for sustained improvement.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

In the Aviva Prem, the Welsh sides will be facing teams with a salary cap of £4.5m. In the HC, they'll be facing teams with wage bills of £6-10m.

Look at which teams are progressing automatically in the HC this year. Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Leinster, Munster and probably Ulster and Leicester. Anyone surprised that basically the richest are going through?

I feel really ambivalent about the HC. On the one hand, you get some cracking games for the neutral since the intensity is higher than the Premiership. On the other hand, you feel disconnected from the tournament when you feel that it would be a major result for your club to do well enough to drop down into the Amlin.

(q)

..that's my only contribution.

 

[Rumpi]

Mate there is an angry mob led by Amiga and Smart cookey on its way to your door right now!

Ha. Just calling for honesty in the debate, too many people letting national bias cloud their judgement.

 

[St George]

Ha. Just calling for honesty in the debate, too many people letting national bias cloud their judgement.

That is a very good point Rumpi. I think we all can be a little bias towards our own at some point, but some seem to do so without any thought towards the feelings of the other side.

I have stated many times that i am for the England team, and so am drawn to the PRL which provides the players for that team. But i am not a fan of the PRL mandarins all the time, it just so happens i have great sympathy with the issues they raised with regard the HC. I believe they also have some good points with regards the commercial opportunities within the game, but when it comes to control & governance, i believe that should remain with the governing bodies of the Unions and IRB. Even so, it has to be recognised that some Unions are still in the amateur years when it comes to running a modern professional sport. IMO the WRU are going through that phase right now, and the RFU has been known to have the odd "57" in their ranks at times. But at the moment the RFU/PRL seem to be working in reasonable harmony, and in Ritchie & Beaumont we have a team that are capable of dialogue and common sense,.
Looking at what has been happening to other nations whose PA etc have been coming up for renewal, it will be interesting to see how things pan out when the current RFU/PRL agreement matures. If the PRL start getting to big for their boots and demanding the moon, then i hope the RFU gives them both barrels.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You say that the PRL and RFU work in harmony, but it's not "real" harmony.

It's the sort of harmony you get between two blokes that want to **** the same girl.
They hate each other, but they know that neither of them has a chance if they fight over her.

 

[smartcooky]

Ha. Just calling for honesty in the debate, too many people letting national bias cloud their judgement.

No National bias clouding my judgement. I just find it incredible that the whole of NH rugby seems to have totally shot itself in the foot. It had arguably the greatest domestic rugby competition in the world in the Heineken Cup, even to the point of earning the envy of plenty of SH rugby fans and media.

They have ruined it, all because of nothing more than greed and a power struggle.

What bunch of w@nkers PRL, the LNR, RRW and all the Unions are for letting this happen!

 

[McTallshort]

It was already ruined! Yes the rugby was good but the whole thing was unsustainable even if the ERC had relented and made it a 20 team competition the Pro 12 was finished. The Welsh regions have had enough and were leaking money, the Italian union rightly want to build a more sustainable domestic league and the 2 franchises in Scotland are unloved and have no connection with the borders heartland. The only place it was popular was Ireland and the cost of that is crippling the IRFU. In England and France its very much a second option to the league.

Yes it good while it lasted but the fact is its run its course. Loads of fond memories but all things come to an end and for the HC thats now.

 

[Peat]

It was already ruined! Yes the rugby was good but the whole thing was unsustainable even if the ERC had relented and made it a 20 team competition the Pro 12 was finished. The Welsh regions have had enough and were leaking money, the Italian union rightly want to build a more sustainable domestic league and the 2 franchises in Scotland are unloved and have no connection with the borders heartland. The only place it was popular was Ireland and the cost of that is crippling the IRFU. In England and France its very much a second option to the league.

Yes it good while it lasted but the fact is its run its course. Loads of fond memories but all things come to an end and for the HC thats now.

If it was already ruined and unsustainable nobody would be trying to replace it with another European competition which everyone is trying to do.

The Welsh problem is not with the Pro 12, it's with the Regions and with the Union. Like, I know a lot of their fans don't much care for it, but their actual structural problems lie in the Regions and Union going to war with each other. Right now, there is no guarantee they won't be in the Pro 12 next season.

The Italian union wants to stop paying money to play in the Pro 12. That's all. Right now, there is no guarantee they won't be in the Pro 12 next season.

The Scottish regions have been suffering due to Scotland's rugby heartland and Scotland's population centres not matching up, and they have been suffering due to the financial onus of Murrayfield, and poor national performances, but they are on the way up.

There is a tendency to take negotiating stances as done deals. They're not. This saga has a long and tedious way to go. Roll on the actual rugby.

 

[McTallshort]

Peat, who can afford to compete with the French Giants? over the last 8 years only 2 of the Irish teams have been able to match them and its cost the IRFU a fortune. How much did they borrow last season? 20m euros wasnt it? No way can the English, Welsh, Scots or Italians possibly win, the average players wage is now out of the reach of most pro 12 and about half the T14 and Premiership teams. Something has got to give and its with some sadness its the HC.

The French and English leagues can currently stand alone as long as the TV keeps coming in which isnt written in stone. Without the pro 12 (likely) none of the current participants have a stand alone pro league but if the wages were reduced and the unions supported they could have. Italy I think are heading in the right direction, compact domestic competition with 8 teams reaching more areas of the northern industrial heartland is much better than 2 franchises getting battered every week in effectively a foreign league. I believe this could also work in Wales (whos regions have failed) and also Scotland. The big looser if you like is the players who wages would have to take a big hit but that has got to happen soon anyway.

Sometimes you have to go slightly back to go forwards again, the current European cup is not sustainable because everyone is trying to compete against the cash rich French and the Union subsidized Irish and no one can afford it (actually the Irish only can as long as the IRFU dont mind borrowing huge amounts of of money). Its time for the unions to think about establishing their own domestic leagues and reaching out in the case of Scotland, Wales and Italy to some of the fans they have lost chasing the big buck French and Irish teams with unloved regions and franchises.

 

[Amiga500]

Peat, who can afford to compete with the French Giants? over the last 8 years only 2 of the Irish teams have been able to match them and its cost the IRFU a fortune. How much did they borrow last season? 20m euros wasnt it?

Stall, stall... the deficit in budget incurred as a result of having to meet long-term loan/bond payments on the new Lansdowne Road alongside poor uptake of long term (5 & 10 year) season tickets. It was not reflective of an ordinary year.

I would also suggest on the back of the Canal+ deal being well over twice that of the BT deal that trouble is afoot in PRL-land as well as Rabo-land. Remember, £152million is the headline BT figure over 4 years, which includes any European competition and therefore requires money to be distributed to non English entrants)

The T14 are getting nearly £80 million a year. PRL will be doing well to get £30 million a year. Maybe they can compete in the future, but after ~4 years of that kind of TV deal disparity, I wouldn't be too fanciful of their chances. Meanwhile, the Rabo on ~10 million/yr is f**ked. At best, we'll be able to field teams of homegrown players who want to stay in Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy - but there won't necessarily be the matured foreign talent to help guide them.

I'm afraid at this point, a lot of pride may have to be swallowed across the islands... A franchise league incorporating England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy*... If it involved only the home nations, it wouldn't take Sky too long to dress it up as the "Lions League" or some similar hype.

*who may instead want to enter teams into the T14/D2.

 

[McTallshort]

Why why why would England go for that.

The only nation who would want that are Ireland. why would the Welsh,Scottish or Italians go for an extended Pro 12 which is all it is when its hardly worked for them to date.

Pride needs swallowing but only with the people who thought regional/franchise rugby could work in a club based NH. Smaller player wages, tight domestic leagues is the best way forward for most.

 

[Amiga500]

Why why why would England go for that.

I thought I made that clear with:

The T14 are getting nearly £80 million a year. PRL will be doing well to get £30 million a year. Maybe they can compete in the future, but after ~4 years of that kind of TV deal disparity, I wouldn't be too fanciful of their chances.

You can definitely argue that either way though.

why would the Welsh,Scottish or Italians go for an extended Pro 12 which is all it is when its hardly worked for them to date.

Welsh - How many grand slams did the Welsh win when the game was professional and there was no Pro12/Magners League? How many have they won since the league started? So the WRU would be happy with the result of the Pro12. According to some on here, a league involving the Welsh regions and English clubs would be the saving of the Welsh regions.

Scottish - So, what professional Scottish league do you see being formed as an alternative? While Scotland hasn't been doing great since rugby went professional - they'd be doing a helluva lot worse without 2 professional teams in Scotland.

Italians - Their national team has steadily improved in 6N performances with their Pro12 entries helping to build a national squad strong enough to compete, rather than having a few big stars in France backed up by semi-pros.

Pride needs swallowing but only with the people who thought regional/franchise rugby could work in a club based NH.

:mellow:

There are only 2 countries in the world with a club based professional system.

Accepting international rugby as the zenith of the game; in the last 10 years, the supposedly inferior region based system has won 4 grand slams (2005, 2008, 2009, 2012). The supposedly superior club based system has won 2 (2004, 2010).


The Celtic league started in 2001. Since then, there has been 4 grand slams for teams from countries with the regional system and 4 for those with the club systems. There have been 7 wins for the club system and 5 wins for the regional system (regionals winning 42%).

In the decade prior to the Celtic league - all the grand slams were English or French (5 of them). There were 8 6/5N wins for England/France and 2 6/5N wins for the Scotland/Wales (Ireland being crap) (regionals winning 20%).


By what measure or means can you possibly justify that going to a regional system has not improved the fortunes of those countries who have used it? Or do you want me to start measuring success in the Heineken cup?

Smaller player wages, tight domestic leagues is the best way forward for most.

I'm not even going to dignify that "suggestion" with an answer.

 

[McTallshort]

You confuse domestic success with International success if the 2 were the same Ireland would be chasing a 6th grand slam which they are not.

Wales have won 3 grand slams but how many times have their regions reached a HC final? never. Regional rugby has not been a success in Wales ask any welsh rugby fan.

Scotland have gone backwards both domestically and Internationally franchise rugby has failed.

Italy have hardly improved internationally yes they bet a crap french team but what else? Never been close to winning it and regularly get stuffed domestically

As for my suggestion well Italy are quite keen on it and they perhaps know a bit more than a one eyed Irish fan who has an axe to grind against the english clubs.

 

[Amiga500]

You confuse domestic success with International success if the 2 were the same Ireland would be chasing a 6th grand slam which they are not.
Wales have won 3 grand slams but how many times have their regions reached a HC final? never. Regional rugby has not been a success in Wales ask any welsh rugby fan.

Did you even bother to read the stats I posted up?

Both Wales and Ireland have benefitted significantly from the regional approach - both at club and international games. Unless you need reminded of how the likes of Ponty faired in the HEC in the days of old and how immense Ireland were in the 5N during the 90s?

[Yes, the Welsh regions have underperformed compared to their potential - but even so - they have laid the foundation for the international team's success which has significantly helped in paing for the Millennium stadium and will see increased monies from WRU come back into the game as that debt is paid off.]

Scotland have gone backwards both domestically and Internationally franchise rugby has failed.

As opposed to how they'd be without professional teams?

Unless you think the SRU could run a professional league in the borders?

Italy have hardly improved internationally yes they bet a crap french team but what else? Never been close to winning it and regularly get stuffed domestically

They've hardly improved internationally despite beating France twice in a row at home and Ireland for the first time in the 6N?

As for my suggestion well Italy are quite keen on it and they perhaps know a bit more than a one eyed Irish fan who has an axe to grind against the english clubs.

None so blind as those that do not want to see.