Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[munstermuffin]

You confuse domestic success with International success if the 2 were the same Ireland would be chasing a 6th grand slam which they are not.

Wales have won 3 grand slams but how many times have their regions reached a HC final? never. Regional rugby has not been a success in Wales ask any welsh rugby fan.

Scotland have gone backwards both domestically and Internationally franchise rugby has failed.

Italy have hardly improved internationally yes they bet a crap french team but what else? Never been close to winning it and regularly get stuffed domestically

As for my suggestion well Italy are quite keen on it and they perhaps know a bit more than a one eyed Irish fan who has an axe to grind against the english clubs.

On competing with French. It's extremely rare where IRFU loose players to France when they in national set up
But on Wales it's as said their problem has always been with Unions not league. People hated the regions been set up like Neath and Swansea are bitter rivals yet they're forced to come together.

Scotland simply don't have talent in areas and coaching issues.

Italy have massively improved beating Ireland and France but they're well able to compete the biggest issue is consistency

 

[Maverick1987]

I personally don't think mixed leagues are the way for the NH to go . It works in the SH because they have strong leagues underneath . Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy have nothing underneath the rabo 12 which in itself can be quite disappointing at times . I'm glad Italy are looking to set up their own league they need a tribal setup where they can raise awareness in Italy more . I'm sure people will support teams that are close to their home towns rather than either supporting zebre or Treviso who hardly get the neutrals blood pumping .

 

[Maverick1987]

On competing with French. It's extremely rare where IRFU loose players to France when they in national set up
But on Wales it's as said their problem has always been with Unions not league. People hated the regions been set up like Neath and Swansea are bitter rivals yet they're forced to come together.

Scotland simply don't have talent in areas and coaching issues.

Italy have massively improved beating Ireland and France but they're well able to compete the biggest issue is consistency

I think it's rather it's rare the IRFU lose players to France yet .......

 

[munstermuffin]

I think it's rather it's rare the IRFU lose players to France yet .......

Just look at list they've targeted and brought over as guests. I think it's something about playing for a province the buzz, attachment and passion. It's a unique thing and I think that along with how well they are looked after is why they are drawn to staying.

 

[Maverick1987]

Just look at list they've targeted and brought over as guests. I think it's something about playing for a province the buzz, attachment and passion. It's a unique thing and I think that along with how well they are looked after is why they are drawn to staying.

It depends how long the IRFU can sustain it . Is it true they borrowed £20 million last year ?

 

[profitius]

Tallshort, you have to look at the big picture. Did anyone think the Italian sides would be winning many matches? I didn't. It takes time. Irish provinces could only afford a few professional playetrs starting off and hardly any coaching staff. You'd see 3 men and a dog at inter provisional matches. When that was the case I'm sure there were people calling the IRFU crazy when they were attempting to bring players home from the English league.

I think the Welsh regions troubles are certainly not down to the pro 12. That's the big misconception and fib going. There problem has been the wealth of the French teams and Irish teams getting stronger is a tougher league.

The league has been growing all the time. It'll be on sky next year and attendance's and gates ate always growing. As I said, it needs time.

The French are out in front now but that might not be forever. Things are changing quickly and I don't think the unions will allow the inflation damage super rugby, the rabo and more importantly international rugby.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Just look at list they've targeted and brought over as guests. I think it's something about playing for a province the buzz, attachment and passion. It's a unique thing and I think that along with how well they are looked after is why they are drawn to staying.

I think it's coming though, it's most likely that two of Ireland's starting XV will be playing outside France next year, if you'd told anyone in the country that this time last year they'd have called you mad! It's impossible to predict now anyway considering the state of European club rugby, I think that must have been a factor as to why SOB's contract talks got to the stages it got to, he definitely didn't want to go to France if you ask me.

 

[dullonien]

Pride needs swallowing but only with the people who thought regional/franchise rugby could work in a club based NH. Smaller player wages, tight domestic leagues is the best way forward for most.

In what way would that help? If we reduce wages further, then more of our players will leave to play in France etc. Eventually, the quality of this tight domestic league would be appalling as all the good players leave, and rugby in Wales would die. It's not just about competing with the French and English clubs on the field, but we need to find a way to compete with them off the field as well. Maybe the only way to do that is to implement a rule like NZ, that only players based at home are selected for international honours. It's not a rule I'd particularly like to see implemented, but when needs must.

Wales have won 3 grand slams but how many times have their regions reached a HC final? never. Regional rugby has not been a success in Wales ask any welsh rugby fan.

Don't mistake not being totally happy with the current regional system, as not wanting regional rugby. On the whole regional rugby has been a success, without it we'd still be in a right mess. Maybe it could have been implemented better (better share of the population bases/rugby strongholds), but maybe it couldn't due to unworkable existing rivalries. It certainly needs to be managed better, by both the WRU and the regions themselves.

There could be scope for a professional domestic league, and regions playing in Europe, but that is without working out if it is viable financially.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think it's coming though, it's most likely that two of Ireland's starting XV will be playing outside France next year, if you'd told anyone in the country that this time last year they'd have called you mad! It's impossible to predict now anyway considering the state of European club rugby, I think that must have been a factor as to why SOB's contract talks got to the stages it got to, he definitely didn't want to go to France if you ask me.

Possibly but I don't fear it like Heaslip goes you have Copeland and Murphy who can easily overtake him in next 12 months. I honestly think Irish players don't see the huge draw of France. Apart from cash there's not a lot and while I agree some will go in time I think it'll be more when they know their international time is near an end. Also agents use French clubs too now and know how to play the game

 

[St George]

You say that the PRL and RFU work in harmony, but it's not "real" harmony.

It's the sort of harmony you get between two blokes that want to **** the same girl.
They hate each other, but they know that neither of them has a chance if they fight over her.

To be pedantic, i did say reasonable harmony, which implies its not a 100% buddy hug.

But i had to laugh at your analogy, and suspect that the girl would in fact bugger off with a Kiwi whilst those two bugger each other.

 

[McTallshort]

In what way would that help? If we reduce wages further, then more of our players will leave to play in France etc. Eventually, the quality of this tight domestic league would be appalling as all the good players leave, and rugby in Wales would die. It's not just about competing with the French and English clubs on the field, but we need to find a way to compete with them off the field as well. Maybe the only way to do that is to implement a rule like NZ, that only players based at home are selected for international honours. It's not a rule I'd particularly like to see implemented, but when needs must.

There are only so many places in the top French clubs, I know its hard on the players but they have to except the current wages level are only sustainable to the top French teams and thats only while the TV money keeps rolling in. Wales could opt for a 8 club domestic league with the top players on central contracts all it takes is a bit of cooperation from the WRU.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Canal + Frances live rugby TV broadcaster ups its contract from 30 million €'s to 70 million €'s over the next 5 years. no comments at the mo, from Beinsport.

 

[Nielsch]

Canal + Frances live rugby TV broadcaster ups its contract from 30 million â'¬'s to 70 million â'¬'s over the next 5 years. no comments at the mo, from Beinsport.

It's up from 30 million to 71 million euro per year for a period of 5 years

 

[munstermuffin]

It depends how long the IRFU can sustain it . Is it true they borrowed £20 million last year ?

The big cherry you missed here is that money paid of their part of stadium in Aviva and contributions to Ravenhill and Musgrave and other stadiums. Not borrowed to stay afloat

 

[McTallshort]

So under normal circumstances the IRFU doesn't make a loss?

 

[psychic duck]

On competing with French. It's extremely rare where IRFU loose players to France when they in national set up
But on Wales it's as said their problem has always been with Unions not league. People hated the regions been set up like Neath and Swansea are bitter rivals yet they're forced to come together.

Scotland simply don't have talent in areas and coaching issues.

Italy have massively improved beating Ireland and France but they're well able to compete the biggest issue is consistency

This isn't anywhere near as much as people hype up. Neath and Swansea came together fine, it's the Bridgend and Pontypridd Valleys brigade who've sold that line to the press about the regions, after they messed up their own team they decided to ruin and annoy everyone else instead of following another region instead.

By the way, I don't think Italy have "massively improved" since 2010 in the Pro12. Remember that Ireland team that day last year had a lot of injuries and their formations were ruined early on with forwards going on the wing etc. At home that was a golden opportunity for Italy with Ireland as they were, it would have taken a spectacular choke even bigger than their choke against England in 2012 to have missed it. Remember Italy got trashed by Samoa and lost at home to a weak Argentina team in dismay last year, they failed to challenge Ireland at the RWC and have hardly gone anyway to fixing their problems such as fly half. I could argue they were marginally improved but not massively.

 

[McTallshort]

Did you even bother to read the stats I posted up?

No.

 

[munstermuffin]

This isn't anywhere near as much as people hype up. Neath and Swansea came together fine, it's the Bridgend and Pontypridd Valleys brigade who've sold that line to the press about the regions, after they messed up their own team they decided to ruin and annoy everyone else instead of following another region instead.

By the way, I don't think Italy have "massively improved" since 2010 in the Pro12. Remember that Ireland team that day last year had a lot of injuries and their formations were ruined early on with forwards going on the wing etc. At home that was a golden opportunity for Italy with Ireland as they were, it would have taken a spectacular choke even bigger than their choke against England in 2012 to have missed it. Remember Italy got trashed by Samoa and lost at home to a weak Argentina team in dismay last year, they failed to challenge Ireland at the RWC and have hardly gone anyway to fixing their problems such as fly half. I could argue they were marginally improved but not massively.

Sorry I thought you meant national team. Regards Europe/club Treviso have slightly but Zebre or previously Aironi haven't no they are a dead fixture for most opponents. I still think Italy national team have improved and yes Ireland had injuries (even during match if I remember POM had to play as winger) but still they won. As I said their issue is consistency.
But regards regions Duck my point is though it never really did take off properly like. Maybe it was places like Pontypridd, Newport, Bridgend but it's point that is valid like there was always ****ly issues within all regions

 

[Maverick1987]

The big cherry you missed here is that money paid of their part of stadium in Aviva and contributions to Ravenhill and Musgrave and other stadiums. Not borrowed to stay afloat

It's still money that has to be paid back though adding to any overall debt they have

Borrowing money to pay off the aviva stadium debt is exactly the same as mortgaging 1 house to pay debt on another

 

[munstermuffin]

It's still money that has to be paid back though adding to any overall debt they have

Borrowing money to pay off the aviva stadium debt is exactly the same as mortgaging 1 house to pay debt on another

But they're finished paying off debts for stadium. And it's not as if they're loosing money but simply the demand was there. Ulster will easily be filling new capacity at Ravenhill, Munster will too and no doubt Leinster would be probably getting a refurbishment if they owned stadium.
Every club has loans I bet and â'¬20m between 4provinces and national team isn't too bad considering they could pay of Aviva too well ahead of schedule. It's FAI who've only a balance left