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France vs All Blacks (21/11/21) 09.00am NZDT @ Stade de France, Paris

love the arrogance of the only way you can accept someone has a different opinion is if that havent done something properly :D

We've already established we roll in very different circles when it comes to how we see almost every aspect of the game, no need to get worked up
Nothing wrong with anyone giving an opinion, but when someone says something it still has to make good sense... you tell me about any tactic that I've said that doesn't make sense ?

Not getting worked up, just prefer good logical debates.
 
Nothing wrong with anyone giving an opinion, but when someone says something it still has to make good sense... you tell me about any tactic that I've said that doesn't make sense ?

Not getting worked up, just prefer good logical debates.
i agreed with @Umaga's Witness breakdown, i dont think he has the distribution or kicking games that Nonu has at least later in his career and how he breaks the line is quite different, Laumape tends to spot a weak shoulder and punch a hole where nonu would drift from deep and stretch a hole or step back infield and feed a runner. They're both wellington 12's...i'll give you that and as i say, i am actually a fan and would rather he was in the black jersey right now but i think just saying hes nonu like is...i dont know, a bit basic
 
To be fair all young players are a bit green - Nonu use to be the same early in his career in Super Rugby too... both of them improved heaps in their skill sets & tough mental attitude... yeah, coaches can hinder players, best to just let them use their own natural flair etc, as long as they're making good decisions under pressure.
Nonu was sensational from his first game in super rugby, playing mostly on the wing in the early days. He just went from sensational to legendary, one of the best ever players, due to his growth. Laumape went from not good enough to be playing super rugby to being a great super rugby player who was unlucky not to get more all blacks opportunities
 
i agreed with @Umaga's Witness breakdown, i dont think he has the distribution or kicking games that Nonu has at least later in his career and how he breaks the line is quite different, Laumape tends to spot a weak shoulder and punch a hole where nonu would drift from deep and stretch a hole or step back infield and feed a runner. They're both wellington 12's...i'll give you that and as i say, i am actually a fan and would rather he was in the black jersey right now but i think just saying hes nonu like is...i dont know, a bit basic
Both Nonu & Laumape grew into having very good distribution skills & short kicking games... also both of them step well looking to run into space, plus they can consistently break the advantage line, making them huge threats, so the opposition are put in two minds, not knowing whether they're going to pass, kick or power through players, so yeah, they do play a similar type of game.
 
Nonu was sensational from his first game in super rugby, playing mostly on the wing in the early days. He just went from sensational to legendary, one of the best ever players, due to his growth. Laumape went from not good enough to be playing super rugby to being a great super rugby player who was unlucky not to get more all blacks opportunities
Can't remember Nonu playing that well in his first super rugby season, yeah remember him playing on the wing - he tended to play better for the ABs than he did for Wgtn or the Canes, probably because Wgtn/Canes have always tended to have shite forward packs... reckon Nonu & Conrad Smith would have to be the best midfield combo the ABs have ever had, the balance was brilliant, had the brutal power of Nonu at 12 & the smaller Conrad Smith at 13 who was a great organizer of the backline & one of the most intelligent backs we have had.
 
That's the hardest thing in international rugby replacing combinations. That Nonu and Smith Combo in midfield - how many tests did they play together? Then you added SBW to come off the bench.
 
One of the problems the ABs had post 2015 midfield wise was that both the preferred incumbents, Crotty and SBW were no. 12s and also injury prone. Trying to field them both generated some unwanted outcome medium and long term: one of them always had to play out of position, the development of other midfield combination stalled, some players got frustrated if not making the ABs or the WC squad, etc.

Hansen did great things post 2011, but he probably stayed two years too long. His mandate should have ended upon the closing of the Lions series.
 
That's the hardest thing in international rugby replacing combinations. That Nonu and Smith Combo in midfield - how many tests did they play together? Then you added SBW to come off the bench.
Nonu & Smith had a big advantage combination wise, as they played together as a pairing for Wgtn & the Canes too, not sure how many tests they've played in together - but played together for Abs for about 8 years... thought SBW's was a bit one-dimensional, if he couldn't get his offloading game going he didn't have that much to offer on attack.
 
One of the problems the ABs had post 2015 midfield wise was that both the preferred incumbents, Crotty and SBW were no. 12s and also injury prone. Trying to field them both generated some unwanted outcome medium and long term: one of them always had to play out of position, the development of other midfield combination stalled, some players got frustrated if not making the ABs or the WC squad, etc.

Hansen did great things post 2011, but he probably stayed two years too long. His mandate should have ended upon the closing of the Lions series.
Reckon Crotty was more suited to 13, was a smart player & had good back organizing skills... prefer the bigger of the two midfielders to play at 12 because they're closer to the ruck & mauls etc where most of the busy traffic is, so they have a better chance of getting the ball over the advantage line.

Yeah, a coach can stay on too long... comes a point where a team needs some new ideas/fresh outlook.
 
Nonu & Smith had a big advantage combination wise, as they played together as a pairing for Wgtn & the Canes too, not sure how many tests they've played in together - but played together for Abs for about 8 years... thought SBW's was a bit one-dimensional, if he couldn't get his offloading game going he didn't have that much to offer on attack.

62 according to this link.

Isn't that why SBW was so suited to coming off the bench, using his offloading game when the game opened up?
 

62 according to this link.

Isn't that why SBW was so suited to coming off the bench, using his offloading game when the game opened up?
Thanks mate.

They did start him a fair few times though, which I didn't agree with... but yeah, to get the most value out of his offloading he needed to come off the bench later in the match, when the oppositions defence was starting to tire.
 
Probably not... if the NZRU did pay him out of his contract they'd have to admit they made the wrong decision, they're too arrogant to do that.
Those idiots in the NZ media need to share the blame too. Not a single negative mention (that I've seen) of the coaching staff, as if they're somehow above criticism. Like everyone else they can see the tactics are wrong, outdated, and/or unadaptable but they won't even suggest that maybe Fozzie isn't capable and time is running out to replace him. Pathetic.
 
Both Nonu & Laumape grew into having very good distribution skills & short kicking games... also both of them step well looking to run into space, plus they can consistently break the advantage line, making them huge threats, so the opposition are put in two minds, not knowing whether they're going to pass, kick or power through players, so yeah, they do play a similar type of game.
I guess that's what I'm saying, I don't think laumape has developed an overly noticeable short kicking or distribution game, no more than other 12s and definitely not what I saw in nonu later in his career
 
Unlikely as it may be I hope France smash them in this one. If anyone says I'm not a real fan I'd say real fans want the ABs to win the World Cup and our best chance of doing that is with Razor. Even if it happens mid-year 2022 he'll do a better job immediately (think Rassie with the boks) and if not him there's a whole freaking queue of better options. The more you look at the evidence, the more blindingly stupid it looks that Fozzie was promoted just because he was an assistant for X years. Allez les bleus lol.
 
Unlikely as it may be I hope France smash them in this one. If anyone says I'm not a real fan I'd say real fans want the ABs to win the World Cup and our best chance of doing that is with Razor. Even if it happens mid-year 2022 he'll do a better job immediately (think Rassie with the boks) and if not him there's a whole freaking queue of better options. The more you look at the evidence, the more blindingly stupid it looks that Fozzie was promoted just because he was an assistant for X years. Allez les bleus lol.
im just worried its too late, we bring him in but he doesn;t have enough time to do what he needs and then gets painted with the failure brush...he should have been appointed for this tour
 
Unlikely as it may be I hope France smash them in this one. If anyone says I'm not a real fan I'd say real fans want the ABs to win the World Cup and our best chance of doing that is with Razor. Even if it happens mid-year 2022 he'll do a better job immediately (think Rassie with the boks) and if not him there's a whole freaking queue of better options. The more you look at the evidence, the more blindingly stupid it looks that Fozzie was promoted just because he was an assistant for X years. Allez les bleus lol.
dude, there is zero chance the coaching staff will be removed at this stage. I could imagine them adding to it, but that's going to be at a lower level - eg bringing in an advisor. With the players saying how the energy and culture is the best they've seen at the all blacks, and raving about how positive it is and how much everyone is learning all the time and off each other, and with plum tree saying foster is the best head coach he's worked with (and he's worked with a lot including Schmidt), with then already extending his contract and with very little time for a new regime to establish itself, a new coaching team simply isn't going to happen.

Ironically, based on what the coaches have said about their vision and approach, they may well be developing well for a World Cup. They identified our inability to adapt to England's game plan, and recognised that having a consistent (and typically highly effective) structure last time around set us up to be analysed and beaten - like eddie said he spent four years developing a plan to beat the all blacks, and we also saw Japan spend four years effectively developing plans for ireland and scotland. So they are trying to develop the players ability to adapt in the game, and think for themselves, with different structures depending on the situation.

That is a massive task. You'd have to expect us to look a bit rubbish from time to time with that approach. If you really do only care about the World Cup, then you can only really judge the coaches after the World Cup.

Personally I care about every game, and wish there was less emphasis on world cups. I'm all for them building our ability to adapt and not relying on structure, but I want us to win in the meantime. And while I agree with their approach in theory, in practice it has to be a balancing act; you need some structure too, I don't think we have enough of it. Ironically the structure we have is causing problems

I also fear we are reacting too much to that one game, similar to Hansen's reaction to losing to ireland in 2018, which led to the dropping of Franks.

Instead of attacking off playing too much of a first pod, we are choosing to either pick and go or shift it straight to midfield. We are then hoping to either make something of it or set up midfield to give us options on both sides of the field on our next phase. But as we have seen shifting it straight to midfield isn't working.

Apart from the overall structure not working, I'm not convinced mooar is a good enough coach to be in the all blacks setup. After tony brown pulled out, who was originally going to be the backs coach in both fosters team and Robertson's, foster had to search for someone last minute. Robertson chose McDonald (and you'd think Robertson could have chosen mooar if he wanted him), who then made himself unavailable to foster.
 
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Those idiots in the NZ media need to share the blame too. Not a single negative mention (that I've seen) of the coaching staff, as if they're somehow above criticism. Like everyone else they can see the tactics are wrong, outdated, and/or unadaptable but they won't even suggest that maybe Fozzie isn't capable and time is running out to replace him. Pathetic.
Spot on mate - also the clowns on ' The Breakdown ' rugby discussion panel don't want to criticize Foster either, yeah it's gutless.
 
I guess that's what I'm saying, I don't think laumape has developed an overly noticeable short kicking or distribution game, no more than other 12s and definitely not what I saw in nonu later in his career
As said, both of them grew into those skill sets - have seen Laumape play a lot for Wgtn & Canes, he definitely has a very good weighted short kicking game, the only other midfielder on the UK tour that has a short kicking game as good as him is Havili.
Laumape's distribution skills are good too, as he reads when to pass the ball or not, all midfielders should have that skill anyway.

The only diff I see between Laumape & Nonu is that Nonu has a better long flat fast pass... in fact haven't seen that many backs over the years that can execute that type of pass as good as him.



This was a ripper with his pace off the mark & step to beat BB, then showed really good speed down the flank to power over to score.

 
As said, both of them grew into those skill sets - have seen Laumape play a lot for Wgtn & Canes, he definitely has a very good weighted short kicking game, the only other midfielder on the UK tour that has a short kicking game as good as him is Havili.
Laumape's distribution skills are good too, as he reads when to pass the ball or not, all midfielders should have that skill anyway.

The only diff I see between Laumape & Nonu is that Nonu has a better long flat fast pass... in fact haven't seen that many backs over the years that can execute that type of pass as good as him.



This was a ripper with his pace off the mark & step to beat BB, then showed really good speed down the flank to power over to score.


i know you think he has all this ability...thats why i said we disagree, im not saying he couldn't have got there...in fact i have said i think we should have kept him because i think he may have...but i dont see what you see in his current game....ive done some spectacular offloads in my time and more than the odd tidy grubber...dont make me nonu
 
What ? have you even watched Laumape or analysed his skill sets properly ?
Laumape sucks at test level. Period. If he was actually any good he wouldn't have been ditched for Havili and Tupaea who were both debutants (?) this year, more or less.

Hell he even got outplayed by Paisami when they started opposite each other last year. And Paisami is... struggling.

At SR he's a great flat-track bully.
 
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