First Test: Australia vs. British and Irish Lions (22/06/13)

[dullonien]

A fair enough assessment. The only thing Croft did that Lydiate wouldn't - and probably the only reason he was on as long as he was - was take lots of lineout ball. And I would ask what would Lydiate have done that Croft didn't that we were missing? Croft put in a solid defensive performances and hit lots of rucks, which is what we'd have expected from Lydiate. Might have he done it better? Possible, but not nailed on. He might have done better with Croft's chance to give the overlap mind, he probably wouldn't have taken it on too long. But might not.

If Croft was on the team simply to add pace, then he should have been taken off the team the moment he developed that toe issue. But he was there to be a safe lineout option, to support the ball carrier, defend in midfield - and add pace when opportunities presented itself. He performed in 3 of the 4 things. I think this is where we disagree dull. Lydiate to start with Croft to come on? Not unless Croft is fit, and if Croft is fit, why not start him? Not to mention the lineout, which I think is key here. Youngs is completing his throws ok,but that's because they're all to the front. They're worrying about it, and as such, Croft is probably going to start. Right? Dunno, but as long as he accomplishes that and does his share of work in the tight - I think he's done what he's meant to. The wide carrying is gravy.

I also agree with jcahill1 that the forwards struggled to get traction going forwards, and that O'Brien might be the answer. Although, really, I'd be more than tempted to find out if Faletau can play 6 if that's what we're looking for.

Yeah, I wasn't necessarily suggesting Lydiate definitely start, more getting people's opinions on it. You make a very good point about Croft in the lineout, although I'd prefer if we could be a little more confident and move Croft to the middle or tail of the lineout and get some more attacking ball. Not his fault though. I do question whether Croft is required for that role though. POC is an excellent front-middle lineout jumper, and I'd expect him to do just as well in that regard. Alun-Wyn Jones another who jumps well. The understanding between Youngs and Croft from their time at Leicester could be what's most important though. Edit. Ignore the amount of "though's" in that paragraph, reads horribly upon re-reading, but can't be bothered to tidy it up.

Regarding the incident with the poor pass, I doubt Lydiate would have been in that position to give a pass at all. So whilst I'm slightly critical of Croft for that, most other players have butchered opportunities to a worse extent than that, or simply wouldn't be in position to take the pass.

Whilst I know I sounded very critical of Croft in that post, it wasn't necessarily my intention. Overall I think we have better options to do the tight-work, so whilst Croft was fairly good in that regard today, playing Lydiate, or even moving Warburton across would be just as good, if not better.

I'd possibly start him again next week if he's fully fit. I'm not sure about moving Faletau across. I think he could do the business, but is it worth moving someone out of position when we have excellent options there anyway, be that Croft, Lydiate, SOB or moving Warburton across to accommodate Tipuric?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think The Lions work on the ideology that you have to play good enough not to be dropped but rather you have to play well enough to keep your spot and I don't think he did considering you have Bowe and even Zebo behind him who both suit playing the Aussies better due to being more skilled and Bowe is also a better overall rugby player.

By your own rules Bowe shouldn't be there, then.
He'd be getting in on reputation, not form, as he's been out for a week or two.

Youngs is completing his throws ok,but that's because they're all to the front.

No they weren't?
It was a good mixture today, including that really long throw basically into midfield, that we then won a penalty from.

 

[Peat]

If Tom Youngs starts regularly throwing to the middle or tail, we might see some disasters. I'm not sure you do need Croft if you're just going to throw to the front all day every day, but they apparently think we do... I guess if you've got both locks in your lineout with Croft at the front you a) sow doubt b) have some really big and strong lifters for Croft.

As for Faletau - what do we want? We need extra go forwards but we want to maintain defensive integrity. That screams out for Toby. Heaslip might be sweating on this, he was ok but not great, but in a pinch Toby can play any back-row position to a fair standard. I genuinely would consider him at 6.

By your own rules Bowe shouldn't be there, then.
He'd be getting in on reputation, not form, as he's been out for a week or two.



No they weren't?
It was a good mixture today, including that really long throw basically into midfield, that we then won a penalty from.

All is hyperbole, but at least 50pc were, I wouldn't be surprised to hear 75pc were. They definitely wouldn't have called that with a better hooker - shame we don't appear to have one!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

By your own rules Bowe shouldn't be there, then.
He'd be getting in on reputation, not form, as he's been out for a week or two.



No they weren't?
It was a good mixture today, including that really long throw basically into midfield, that we then won a penalty from.

Bowe is Irish though and that rule would also imply Zebo should definitely start.

No, I was basing it on his form prior to the injury, hopefully he's fit for Tuesday and gets a half of rugby to show it.

 

[dullonien]

As for Faletau - what do we want? We need extra go forwards but we want to maintain defensive integrity. That screams out for Toby. Heaslip might be sweating on this, he was ok but not great, but in a pinch Toby can play any back-row position to a fair standard. I genuinely would consider him at 6.

You make a good case. Just when I thought the back-row selection couldn't get any more difficult....

No, I was basing it on his form prior to the injury

What, the 2 games (ish) of rugby since his last injury?


p.s. don't have an issue with Bowe starting, just wanted to be awkward.

 

[Ospreylian]

With regards to "North-finger-wag-gate" - I definitely think he was doing it as a slightly cocky gesture, but is that a problem?

There are a couple of images that pretty much conclusively show he was in fact not attempting the hand off but pointing and shouting at Genia. Here's a couple links:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...d35a-9e64-44a2-b71b-e5a24a9a409a-620x372.jpeg
http://e1.365dm.com/13/06/504x378/george-north_2962460.jpg?20130622115415

Anyway, I don't really understand why this seems to have kicked up a fuss. North's try reminded me a bit of Shane Williams' great try for Wales against South Africa in 2008, where he beat about 4 defenders and after grounding the ball appeared to shout something to the players he had just beaten and then gesture towards them as if to mock their defence:



I don't think this sort of thing is bad sportsmanship in the game, just getting caught up in a moment, and what's wrong with that? Tension is high on the field and every player is full of adrenaline. A player isn't overly arrogant for enjoying their moment.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

No, I was basing it on his form prior to the injury, hopefully he's fit for Tuesday and gets a half of rugby to show it.

Agreed - if I were coaching the Lions (which, quite frankly...give it time) I'd start both Bowe and Tuilagi with the intention of taking them off early if they're looking test-ready (though I can't see the JD/BOD partnership being threatened unless Roberts comes back sharpish).



If Faletau started at 6 then SOB should just pack his bags and go back to get stuck-in with pre-season at Leinster. Or at least change his name to Sion O'Jones.

 

[Ospreylian]

Agreed - if I were coaching the Lions (which, quite frankly...give it time) I'd start both Bowe and Tuilagi with the intention of taking them off early if they're looking test-ready (though I can't see the JD/BOD partnership being threatened unless Roberts comes back sharpish).

Yeah definitely agree with starting Bowe. He's one of those wingers (like North) who goes looking for space in midfield, and I love that in a winger. He has a calmer head than Cuthbert, and that's needed in the tight games that all 3 of these tests will be. I think Cuthbert is a fantastic finisher, but at present lacks the game awareness of Bowe.

 

[Jaguares]

Anyone know what is the injury of Christian Lealiifano? Is severe or mild?

 

[dullonien]

Anyone know what the injury of Christian Lealiifano? Is severe or mild?

It all depends on the extent of the concussion he suffered, which is not always immediately obvious. He looked out cold for a fair length of time, so I'd be highly surprised if he's fit for next week, or even the week after. However the length of time out doesn't always directly correlate to the severity of concussion, so it's difficult to tell. Concussion is taken very seriously. There is no longer a set amount of time out like there used to be, instead each case is treated independently by specialists.

I imagine we'll know more tomorrow, or Monday.

I hope he makes a speedy recovery. Feel so bad for him, going off within the first minute of his début, and against the Lions of all teams.

 

[Rhyer]

It all depends on the extent of the concussion he suffered, which is not always immediately obvious. He looked out cold for a fair length of time, so I'd be highly surprised if he's fit for next week, or even the week after. However the length of time out doesn't always directly correlate to the severity of concussion, so it's difficult to tell. Concussion is taken very seriously. There is no longer a set amount of time out like there used to be, instead each case is treated independently by specialists.

I imagine we'll know more tomorrow, or Monday.

I hope he makes a speedy recovery. Feel so bad for him, going off within the first minute of his début, and against the Lions of all teams.

And especially considering the fact he would have influenced the outcome of the game with his goal kicking. JOC is ****. Bring back Quade.

 

[Jaguares]

It all depends on the extent of the concussion he suffered, which is not always immediately obvious. He looked out cold for a fair length of time, so I'd be highly surprised if he's fit for next week, or even the week after. However the length of time out doesn't always directly correlate to the severity of concussion, so it's difficult to tell. Concussion is taken very seriously. There is no longer a set amount of time out like there used to be, instead each case is treated independently by specialists.

I imagine we'll know more tomorrow, or Monday.

I hope he makes a speedy recovery. Feel so bad for him, going off within the first minute of his début, and against the Lions of all teams.

Ouch! If Lealiifano doesn't recover in time, do you believe that Robbie Deans may call Quade Cooper?

 

[Jaguares]

And especially considering the fact he would have influenced the outcome of the game with his goal kicking. JOC is ****. Bring back Quade.

Well, if u talk about the kicks, the effectiveness of Quade Cooper is not much higher than that of James. But undoubtedly Quade is a very dominating player, and if he is on a good day can make a difference to Wallabies. If I'm the Wallabies Coach I would call him, but James O'Connor also seems a great player, they can play together. Quade as first five and James as second five or vice versa.

Regards

 

[Peat]

If Faletau started at 6 then SOB should just pack his bags and go back to get stuck-in with pre-season at Leinster. Or at least change his name to Sion O'Jones.

Stop giving away stupid penalties would be ideal.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

With regards to "North-finger-wag-gate" - I definitely think he was doing it as a slightly cocky gesture, but is that a problem?

There are a couple of images that pretty much conclusively show he was in fact not attempting the hand off but pointing and shouting at Genia. Here's a couple links:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...d35a-9e64-44a2-b71b-e5a24a9a409a-620x372.jpeg
http://e1.365dm.com/13/06/504x378/george-north_2962460.jpg?20130622115415

Anyway, I don't really understand why this seems to have kicked up a fuss. North's try reminded me a bit of Shane Williams' great try for Wales against South Africa in 2008, where he beat about 4 defenders and after grounding the ball appeared to shout something to the players he had just beaten and then gesture towards them as if to mock their defence:



I don't think this sort of thing is bad sportsmanship in the game, just getting caught up in a moment, and what's wrong with that? Tension is high on the field and every player is full of adrenaline. A player isn't overly arrogant for enjoying their moment.

I don't care if players show boat a bit - there are far worse things they can do.

I just think it's funny that such a huge fuss was kicked up about Armitage doing it, and yet no one cares when North does it. Talk about double standards! A lot of posters here want more consistency from the ref, but can't manage it themselves

 

[InsaneAsylum]

gutted we didn't take the series lead last night, just so disappointing. I can't remember the last time we played a match where the subs were used as subs, not as damage control to cover injuries. I think that partially cost us the game in the end along with poor kicking. Halfpenny was the difference for the Lions as he simply rarely misses penalties and conversions.

for us, o'connor was out of his depth and losing lealiifano within a minute, then mccabe and barnes it was never going to be our night. barnes also had a shocker before he went off. On the other hand, Genia, Folau and most of the forwards did a great job.

Dissapointed to see Horwill cited but i'm sure he'll be acquitted. What really annoyed me was North pushing folau into barnes which caused his injury. Although I don't believe it to be illegal, its was a dog act, there was no attempt made to tackle folau and he could clearly see barnes rushing up to support him, so north blatantly pushes Folau into barnes. I don't think i've seen anything like that before. if he had pushed folau into an advertising hoarding like that it would have been a yellow and a penalty for reckless play.

 

[lynam1104]

I don't care if players show boat a bit - there are far worse things they can do.

I just think it's funny that such a huge fuss was kicked up about Armitage doing it, and yet no one cares when North does it. Talk about double standards! A lot of posters here want more consistency from the ref, but can't manage it themselves

I agree I myself am guilty of it, i was a little annoyed by North but at the same time to happy so yea.

Armitage is still a huge dick.

 

[nickdnz]

I don't care if players show boat a bit - there are far worse things they can do.

I just think it's funny that such a huge fuss was kicked up about Armitage doing it, and yet no one cares when North does it. Talk about double standards! A lot of posters here want more consistency from the ref, but can't manage it themselves

Totally agree. Whenever I see it I'm usually like "Just put the ball down and stop being a ****" - celebrating is for after you score but I don't really think of it as terrible. But when Armitage got so much crap, which admittedly he is a tool based off other incidents - all I was thinking was "but...it seems every outside back does it, especially in the NH...".

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Of course, this is the greatest showboating of all time

 

[duncanb]

Hi

My take Genia best Aussie by a country mile then he is best 9 in world by a country mile.

BOD slightly unluckly on second pen but first stone wall,remember tackle protocol tackler to release(clear get to feet support weight play ball not man on ground); arriving player stay on feet enter correct play ball not tacklee.Tacklee relaese, place or pass.

Think CP was consistant with this the only issue us NH fans/players see on day in day out basis is that supporting weight is not policed the same as in Super Rugby where clear daylight is a phrase I hear all time on ref mike when watching on Sky thus in NH more holding on pens and SH more for no release/not supporting weight I see merit in each way of reffing but as long as consistant then I have no issues players should just adapt to refs style.

My gripe with CP was lack of managing Guards at ruck and mauls being offside this effectively shut down gain line success in fringe area's around ruck and maul thus effectively shutting down Phillips and pick and go's. I think CJ will police this area better as this is one of his 'things'.

Changes for next week not alot but disappointed with impact from bench maybe Manu or Bowe / Gray/ SOB real worry is Tighthead Jones great in scrum little else Cole dire off bench all else ok without being world beaters but good enough to win just.