EOYT: Wales v Australia, 01/12/2012

[Draggs]

Look, I agree with most of your reasoning and I'm not saying rate everyone a 7 or 8. What I am saying is that as a team we were better than the Argentina game where these were your ratings



On the whole, they are very similar for what was a far worse performance.

I understand the whole "bottling" thing butin my view to give the ratings you have it implies you thought they weren't trying. I willing to bet that these ratings would be a lot higher had we held on and beacuse of what? 30 seconds more defending or an Aussie knock on? I think you are criticizing just for the sake of it.

I don't know, honestly. I wasn't very impressed with the performance at 78 minutes, so I can't imagine much of a change. The issues I have are with things that are right there. Lineouts, kicking, passing, all inaccurate and unpredictable. We don't offload or look for support, the attack has been drained out of us. I really don't think our performance was much better than the Argentina match, and my rating reflect it (nearly every player higher). If we were indeed 'trying' then we have a hell of a lot to work on. We play without the ball too much. We really don't have concentrated attacks. Look at the first few minutes of our match v Ireland (RWC and 6N). We were eager and ready to play. We have a pretty solid defence, in all honestly, and we look content just tackling and hoping that gets us through the match.

I just can't take much from this loss (doesn't even matter, ignore the score).

Our attack is essentially Roberts breaking tackles and having things go from there. Sure it gains a few metres at a time, but it is easy to stop. I don't see much creativity in our backs, no spark in the inside backs that is willing to make a break. Look at Hook in 2008 and Henson in 2005/2008, they controlled their backline and tried to make things happen. I don't see Priestland making breaks or really playing heads up rugby.

@Cymro, fair enough. Was harsh on Reed, but out lineouts were shambles. He was thrust into the spotlight, but I look for players to step up then. In all fairness, he hasn't really looked beyond a Pro12 level, and was perhaps pushed too far through unprecedented injuries.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

To be fair to Reed, he stepped up today. I have been critical of him in the past but today he did what was asked. He wasn't to blame for the lineouts going wrong. That problem lay with the forwards as a unit today.

 

[dullonien]

The lineout seemed to function better when Ken Owens came on, but that might have coincided with a change of tactic? Lou Reed actually held up OK in the things he did, but has never been a commander in the line tbh. The problem was, he was completely out on his feet come the end, and unluckily was one of those left trying to defend the final couple of attacks from Aus. At one stage I thought he could have just leaned out and grabbed Beale at the death, but there was nothing left, he could barely manage a jog!

I thought there were some very good performances from individuals, but I do agree with a lot of what Draggs has said. Apart from a couple of nice attacks in the second quarter where Aus were caught napping in defence a little, we once again offered very little real creative flair. I don't think it's a lack of flair from individuals, because that isn't always needed, but there's just a lack of subtleness in our play. We've got big backline players and that's how they play, when in reality every one of them also have other strings to their bows if the attacking gameplan was more varied and included more dummy runners, some offloads out of the tackle and some much better support running. Having Priestland back on song (or close to it) helped, because he really varied his play well today. Some of his little chips over the top really opened up the game and in reality we should have done better from them. Their success should have put a little doubt into the Aus defensive line as well, freeing up a little space, but we didn't take advantage of that.

Ultimately, we cannot expect to win games by holding onto just a three point lead. We should have, we needed to open a little breathing space when Aus were making mistakes left, right and centre, but we didn't capitalise on them and ultimately got what we perhaps deserved.

Now it's back to Howley in charge. Not looking forwards to the 6 nations!

 

[j'nuh]

Wales fans really shouldn't take anything from this series. Missing 5 or 6 of the starting pack (especially Adam Jones and Lydiate) would be a big blow for any team, and it's hard to guess where a team is when they sustain so many injuries. All these players coming back, plus other players coming back to form, and Wales will have a good shot at the Six Nations. (Although I would worry about some of the coaching/selection...)

Also, the faster that Roberts moves to 13 and tries to emulate the success Tuilagi is having there, the better. Crash-ball 12s don't seem to work anymore. Perhaps it's because they're prone to being isolated and the breakdown is all-important now. Perhaps it's because the defensive line speed is getting faster and 12s can't get enough pace on the ball. I'm not entirely sure. But it still seems to work in the 13 channel, where there's more space to break through tackles. I would bring Beck in at 12 and keep Davies at 13, with Roberts as back-up.

 

[psychic duck]

Wales fans really shouldn't take anything from this series. Missing 5 or 6 of the starting pack (especially Adam Jones and Lydiate) would be a big blow for any team, and it's hard to guess where a team is when they sustain so many injuries. All these players coming back, plus other players coming back to form, and Wales will have a good shot at the Six Nations. (Although I would worry about some of the coaching/selection...)

Also, the faster that Roberts moves to 13 and tries to emulate the success Tuilagi is having there, the better. Crash-ball 12s don't seem to work anymore. Perhaps it's because they're prone to being isolated and the breakdown is all-important now. Perhaps it's because the defensive line speed is getting faster and 12s can't get enough pace on the ball. I'm not entirely sure. But it still seems to work in the 13 channel, where there's more space to break through tackles. I would bring Beck in at 12 and keep Davies at 13, with Roberts as back-up.

Yes we should, you can't lose 4 matches and 7 in total in a row and just carry on as before when a few forwards come back. The attacking tactics simply aren't working at the moment with just 3 tries in 4 matches one of which was an intercept not an attacking move, and two which were scored at a time when the match was long finished.

Wales need to fit a Hook type player into the side, a scrum half who can pass the ball out quicker than Phillips (there must surely be one?), and a centre to offer some variation to the attack in midfield. I think both Roberts and Davies are proven performers, but I don't think they get the best out of each other playing as a combination.

So for the 6 Nations. There needs to be some alterations to the backline in my opinion, there are various possible centre combinations, and also the half backs aren't good enough, especially Priestland although there is doubt about whether the possible alternatives to Phillips are much better.

 

[Draggs]

Phillips wasn't the worst, but really the only thing we have.
Other 'options':
Knoyle
Williams
Webb
Davies

Jonathan Evans is a good little player, and Habberfield should take over from Webb for bench duties.
We need Rhodri Williams to get more time with the Turks.

Priestland isn't a standoff, really. He can't control a game, doesn't offer enough in attack. One of his kicks worked, the other however many went straight into Aussie hands. Biggar is the future, I only hope we realise it sooner rather than later. Some will hate me for this, but I feel Hook was better at centre than Davies. Look at Hook during the 2010 Six Nations, that try against England was outstanding, and he looked very good against Italy (save for blowing a try for Prydie). What I like about Phillips is at least he gets in there. The rest of our players seem timid and afraid to speak. We need someone vocal like Phillips as captain. Might be another 'wonderful' Draggs idea, but I think Halfpenny could make a decent inside back, similar to JOC when he was last playing.

 

[psychic duck]

Phillips wasn't the worst, but really the only thing we have.
Other 'options':
Knoyle
Williams
Webb
Davies

Jonathan Evans is a good little player, and Habberfield should take over from Webb for bench duties.
We need Rhodri Williams to get more time with the Turks.

Phillips doesn't provide enough quick ball to the backs imo, a pity the 2005 Peel has vanished from international rugby. Says a lot about the scrum halves that Phillips can play poorly this year on the field and act like an idiot off it and there be barely any competition for his place.

Priestland isn't a standoff, really. He can't control a game, doesn't offer enough in attack. One of his kicks worked, the other however many went straight into Aussie hands. Biggar is the future, I only hope we realise it sooner rather than later.

Priestland just isn't a good player, really. Shouldn't have made the November squad based on some poor Scarlets performances, not even sure the Scarlets should be selecting him above Aled Thomas at the moment, he's returned to the player he was in the years before his form led to a Wales call up when nobody would have wanted him in the Wales squad. The form in the few months before and the period during the RWC is proving to be a one off purple patch in his career, he's now reverted back to his norm. Baffles me why he was maintained for this series, he didn't have his worst game today but he by no means was great as some are saying on the Gwlad forums, who keep going on about his distribution which I didn't think was that good, where did he bring Roberts and Davies into the game? He also did a crap pass with an overlap wide at one point.

Some will hate me for this, but I feel Hook was better at centre than Davies. Look at Hook during the 2010 Six Nations, that try against England was outstanding, and he looked very good against Italy (save for blowing a try for Prydie). What I like about Phillips is at least he gets in there. The rest of our players seem timid and afraid to speak. We need someone vocal like Phillips as captain. Might be another 'wonderful' Draggs idea, but I think Halfpenny could make a decent inside back, similar to JOC when he was last playing.

+1

Whilst better centre some will argue, there is no denying he could bring some much needed inventiveness and variation to the Wales attack. Anybody remember the Hook at centre in 2010 where he was named in the Magners League dream team and had a good combination going with Roberts?

 

[willrobinson]

I was much happier with the performance today I only managed to catch the first half in real time (but managed to watch the whole game on iplayer later) and I was buzzing when I left the house. They were looking like they actually found out what creativity means at times. Preistland definitely stepped up a few gears today and at the level he was playing today (in a unbiased selection scheme where they are picked on regional form) would defo be back up there fighting for a place with biggar in the pro12 still not at his best but getting there.

It was always going to be hard with I think it was 6 of there first team out, 4 of there subs and 2 others. And especially set pieces and rucks were going to be an issue and they was. With the line outs they had a second row who had only trained with the team for a week and all the others in the second half could jump but only as a reserve option really it was just a recipe for disaster and at one point I remember ryan going up and being suspended in the air for ages then coming down before the ball had been thrown just bad communication.
In the rucks both teams gave away pens as Barnes is extremely nit picky at breakdowns and I felt wales should of thought about this abit more as Warburton gave away loads of pens.

 

[willrobinson]

Halfpenny: 6.5
Cuthbert: 5
Davies: 5
Roberts: 6
Williams: 4.5
Priestland: 5
Phillips: 5.5
Jenkins: 5.5
Rees: 5
Andrews: 5
Reed: 4
Charteris: 5
Shingler: 5
Warburton: 5.5
Faletau: 5

PErsonally these would be my rating's i may of gone to far the other way though

Halfpenny: 7:5 overall game was good but missed that kick and still lacking a bit in attacking play I cant help but thinking that wales miss byrnes direct lines from fb

Cuthbert: 7 strong game but should of done a bit more with the break I feel

Davies: 5 didn’t see much of him

Roberts: 6 strong tackles and running but failed to get over the game line

Williams: 6:5 again playing strongly on the wing good in defence and decent in attack just failed to create more in broken play

Priestland: 6:5 played much stronger then last 6 games he even decided to use a backline today still not 100% bring it into the game but did use it rather then kick missed that tackle but partly made up for it with a lot of big tackles. That kick 8/10 fly halfs would go for that kick imo

Phillips: 6 still not setting the game on fire and can be slow getting to rucks and getting the ball out but still best sh in wales



Jenkins: 6 as I say don’t really watch any front row players but seemed alright to me

Rees: 6 good performance line outs struggled but hard to blame anyone really. Was lucky with that shoulder charge I personally would of yellowed that cause if you look that shoulder was only a inch lower then his head could have been very serious.

Andrews: 6 I was nervous at first as I have only heard bad news about him but he was decent I have seen far worse performance’s from tightheads. Defo 3rd​ choice though

Reed: 7 I reckoned he had a good game he looked alright is best way to put it but going from call up to game in a week in what must be a very chaotic camp he stepped up defo wouldent mind him playing again if the same situation arises where we have 3 locks down

Charteris: 5:5 strong defense apart from poor technique in that tackle

Shingler: 6 no way near as much in the game as he was last week but decent performance I was happy to see him at 6 with ryan jones sudden unexplained dip in form

Warburton: 5 where was he Pocock destroyed him today

Faletau: 6 he played well in rucks and defensive and like Roberts seemed to struggle in getting over the game line


Ryan jones: 5:5 can anyone explain how he has gone from form of his life last season to very good form this season for the ospreys to poor form for wales ?

 

[psychic duck]

Australia didn't play well at all and Wales still can't beat them.

You'd think with matches this close law of averages would suggest Wales would eventually get on the right side of one.

Priestland wasn't as terrible as he was vs Argentina or Samoa, but I don't see why people are saying he had a tremendous game. He was merely average imo, if Dan Biggar played like that nobody would have ever said he played well.

Wales are one loss away from their longest ever run of home defeats now. Next home match ... Ireland. (http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/most_consecutive_losses_home.html?id=4;type=team)

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Next home match ... Ireland.

Cant wait for that - both teams will really be going at each other since they will probably make up about 75% of the Lions. Ireland will be looking for some revenge after what happened last time in Wales.

 

[willrobinson]

Whilst better centre some will argue, there is no denying he could bring some much needed inventiveness and variation to the Wales attack. Anybody remember the Hook at centre in 2010 where he was named in the Magners League dream team and had a good combination going with Roberts?

For the life of me i have never worked how he has never nailed down a permanent place In the starting XV. I understand at first there was jones but now he is out of the picture and they long for someone creative. they need a change of direction in attack the roberts,davis combo isnt working neither is the two Big wingers there is no playmakers so to speak or great angles being ran. the likes of Byrne and roberts of old (who was then classed as one of the best centres in rugby) would run fantastic lines cutting the defence open and shane creating space out of no were but now they just seem to be hoping to break a tackle nothing more. i think
10 Biggar,
11, Halfpenny
12, beck/hook
13,hook/ roberts
14 North/cuthbert one or the other system could do with being tested
15 ?

would be a intresting line up

i am Clueless to fb williams possibly needs more time at 15, henson perhaps one more shot ?, whats happened to byrne no idea on his international situation or form.

But wales need a bit more of a traditional speedy agile stepper on the wing just to mix it up abit and more creativity and draw in defenders. in centre look at the likes of sa. jean de, and f steyn they aint big crash balls but they bring the back three in perfectly. most teams have a fly half like player at inside centre we have a crash ball who is 60% of the time stationary when receiving currently.

 

[willrobinson]

Cant wait for that - both teams will really be going at each other since they will probably make up about 75% of the Lions. Ireland will be looking for some revenge after what happened last time in Wales.

ireland looking dangerous with the big injection of inform young ulster talent

 

[j'nuh]

Yes we should, you can't lose 4 matches and 7 in total in a row and just carry on as before when a few forwards come back. The attacking tactics simply aren't working at the moment with just 3 tries in 4 matches one of which was an intercept not an attacking move, and two which were scored at a time when the match was long finished.

Attack is created by forwards. It's no coincidence that the English pack had a phenomenal game against New Zealand, and then every back seemed to be playing out of their skin. It's because that territory was won, and Farrell, despite offering nothing ball-in-hand, kicked well. In an even contest, tries are scored through winning a territory battle, not through trying backline moves 40m out. Wales didn't score tries because the pack didn't give the territory and clean lineout ball that Wales need. That, in turn, is partly because Wales are missing:
Lydiate and Adam Jones (the two best Wales forwards), Hibbard and Ian Evans/Alun Wyn Jones (the important lineout unit). Get Warburton back to form (or swap him with Tipuric) and Gethin back to fitness, and this pack is a level above the one that was fielded today.

Of course, there's also added complication in winning a territory battle when you play someone as out-of-form as Priestland, but there are options here (Hook, Biggar, Henson, even Stephen Jones when fit again). It's a matter of whether the coaches realise this.

I agree that the Welsh backline isn't as good as it could be (mainly, I want Beck involved). But that's not where the significant problems that Wales need to sort out are happening (except for Priestland...).

Phillips wasn't the worst, but really the only thing we have.
Other 'options':
Knoyle
Williams
Webb
Davies

What about Martin Roberts at the Saints?

Might be another 'wonderful' Draggs idea, but I think Halfpenny could make a decent inside back, similar to JOC when he was last playing.

I mentioned this the other day to a friend. Flyhalf could be a decent position for Halfpenny, for his kicking game. Not sure if his distribution would be up for it though, and it's a lot more sensible to keep him at fullback and use Biggar or Hook.

 

[Draggs]

Halfpenny at standoff saved our triple crown (along with Mike Phillips.
James Hook will never be the Welsh outside half for more than two matches (that would even be something), as far as I can see. Shame, but where does he fit for us? Bench probably.
Hook or someone stable at inside centre, Roberts to drop some weight and play outside centre. Beck could factor in somehow. Keep an eye out for Dixon as well, down the line.
His defence is much better than Davies (4/4 today)

Martin Roberts never looked great, just offered some decent service before the inevitable pen/card.

Anybody remember the hate Hook accumulated a year ago? Well, apparently it is unfair to slag off Priestland, as he doesn't deserve it and just suffering a blip in form. Precious... Hook should go to Cotter and get a contract in Clermont.

Halfpenny is still our best option at fullback, just don't expect attack akin to 2008 Byrne, 2009 Kearney. Hitting the line is something that takes time, I still believe Leigh is our best option at fullback. Liam Williams just doesn't do it. I understand he is a trier and all that, but some just aren't international class. I'm not, but I won't whinge. Williams looks frankly overwhelmed. I thought Ford was the better option early last season, for the Scarlets. If Prydie can stay fit for another season or so, and improve under the highball, then I'd add him to the mix. We were missing our best forwards, but Aus were down two second rows, Pocock just returning from injury and Higginbotham from suspension. Their backline was also miles off first choice (Genia, Cooper, Ioane, JOC, AAC, Mitchell, Beale/Turner).

Fair dos to Scott Andrews, two decent shifts now, keep it up!

 

[Thingimubob]

Australia didn't play well at all and Wales still can't beat them.

You'd think with matches this close law of averages would suggest Wales would eventually get on the right side of one.

Priestland wasn't as terrible as he was vs Argentina or Samoa, but I don't see why people are saying he had a tremendous game. He was merely average imo, if Dan Biggar played like that nobody would have ever said he played well.

Wales are one loss away from their longest ever run of home defeats now. Next home match ... Ireland. (http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/most_consecutive_losses_home.html?id=4;type=team)

Didnt realise anyone was saying he had a tremendous game? Personally I don't blame him for losing and that's about him, he wasn't as awful as he has been but wasnt all that good either. Basically there was usually one bad thing for every good thing he did.

I'm actually dreading that Ireland match... if it was next week I don't think I would watch it. Hell if they were playing anyone next week I probably couldn't bring myself to watch it after the depression of the last 4 weeks...
I'm just hoping the next 9 weeks get me back in the mood, just praying we wont end up with as long of an injury list!

Also on Hook, I thought he was a cracking 13! Thought him and Roberts went very well together, though him and Davies together isn't too bad a shout either. Creativity is the main thing we lack with a Roberts - Davies midfield, especially with Priestland (who used to complement that centre partnership well) playing so poorly at the moment.

 

[Ozzay]

Roberts and Davies is kinda like Roberts and Shanklin, that partnership never worked but Davies does have some serious pace. We do need a creative 10/12 though definately.


Still gutted about yesterday

 

[TVH11]

Well I agree with what most are saying!!!

IMO Priestland was better, but the constant kicking possession away is extremely infuriating. He wasn't the only one guilty for it, Davies had done it a few times (must be a turk thing ).

Why is it only now that people are understanding that two crash-ball center's do not work. I've been babbling on regarding this for years!!! Arguably, Wales have played the best rugby, and had the most success with a "2nd fly half" at 12 and a Crash at 13 (ala Henson + Shanklin). That's not to hide the Hook at 13 experiment we had.

I'm the first criticize Priestland's performances, but we tend to have this fascination with blaming a whole defeat on him when we lose. I havent seen any papers this morning but I can only imagine they have a cheesy pun + a picture of a distraught Priestland. Its a shame, because other than kicking away possession (which some would argue was him trying things) and the missed tackle early on (arguably Roberts' man depending on which defensive pattern they were playing), he had a solid game. Agree that If it was Biggar he would have been linched and never given another shot at Welsh number 10 ever again!

Its not all doom and gloom. The backs shouldn't take all the flack for the defeats and lack of creativity. Can't do jack without a forward platform!!! Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the injury list on tv coverage yesterday. No wonder we have no forward platform!!! Some of the guys that came in did a solid job, but ultimately it shows we lack strength in depth!

Just think, 6 nations we'll have Gav Back at 10

 

[Big Ewis]

What the blazes are you prattling on about?

"What the blazes" ?! Wasn't aware some ppl still used this in the 21st century...looking to be stylish or not :lol:

It's about the third time I try to cheer up the Welsh on these boards and I get stuffed each time.
I suppose you'd rather me saying this:
7 defeats in a row Wales, including 4 in a row at home and 4 to Australia in the past few months, you fkn SUCK to be perfectly realistic !! Get a hold of yeselves !!! For God's sake men !! ^_^

...
no but srs, you better get Ireland in Feb.
Is this anything of a record btw for Wales ? 7 in a row ? (not being pretty, seriously asking).

EDIT: just checked. No, the worst is 9 in a row actually. From 2002 against England to 2003...against.......ehm....England.
Oh my bad, that's just 6N. Doesn't include all other tests...

Okay: same stretch, 2002-03. 11 losses in a row.

France is 18 in a row !! :lol:
1911-1920, that's an entire fkn decade !!! ^^

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Halfpenny had been discharged and given the all clear.

Leigh Halfpenny was discharged from hospital today (Sunday) following scans at University Hospital Wales.
The Cardiff Blues full back was taken from the pitch in the final moments of Wales’ match against Australia at the Millennium Stadium yesterday complaining of neck pain.
He was immediately admitted to hospital to exclude any serious neck injury, a process which thankfully has now been concluded.
“I want to say thank you to all of the medical teams who have looked after me following my injury yesterday,†said Halfpenny.
â€The paramedics, WRU and Millennium Stadium medical teams were outstanding. All of the staff at University Hospital Wales were also amazing.
â€Everyone has been so supportive and the care that I have had has been incredibly professional and second to none. I'd also like to thank all of those who have been sending me messages of support following the injury.â€
Halfpenny will now undertake a period of treatment and rehabilitation to ensure that a swift return to play is undertaken.