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EOYT: Wales v Argentina, 10/11/2012

I agree with a lot of that Draggs. I do think that Warburton warrants a little more than a 3. He wasn't the worst player, with his tackle count being the best in the team - 14/1. Still off form, and should still drop to the bench, or move to 6 if Ryan Jones isn't fit.

Not sure Paul James was much of an improvement either, not on the tighthead at least. He struggled in the scrum, but do think he'd be better on the loosehead. Bevington also struggled in the scrum when he came on, but was quite lively in open play.

If you give Jarvis a 6 then Jenkins is equally deserving of a 6. Sorry but watching the game again, the tackles he made, chasing of poor kicks, rucking, scrummaging the guy ran himself into the ground. If he get's a 4 for that and Jarvis get's a 6 (deserved) then there is a serious witch hunt going on.

Good in the first 30 or 40min, poor during his time in the second half. Jarvis made more tackles than Jenkins, but missed one more as well. I'd say Jarvis deserves a slightly better score, it was his first cap and he also made a turnover. Up Jenkins to a 5.
 
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Knoyle should have had a 4, Warburton was tough to call.
The fact about Robinson remains that there are better wings getting more game time for their regions. It just seems like his selection is a bit undeserved.
Jenkins isn't match fit, plain and simple.
 
Knoyle should have had a 4, Warburton was tough to call.
The fact about Robinson remains that there are better wings getting more game time for their regions. It just seems like his selection is a bit undeserved.
Jenkins isn't match fit, plain and simple.

So what, Robinson is there ... Prydie should have been, fact is Robinson is there.

Jenkins still lasted longer than Jarvis ... and did more. I suggest you go back and follow his tracks, Jenkins did a lot and therefore ran himself into the ground. That is the truth, you can argue it anyway you want. He still put a shift in.

Good in the first 30 or 40min, poor during his time in the second half. Jarvis made more tackles than Jenkins, but missed one more as well. I'd say Jarvis deserves a slightly better score, it was his first cap and he also made a turnover. Up Jenkins to a 5.

I am not going to argue the case for much longer. People on this forum wrote Jenkins off on his selection and he still did the business. People questioned his scrummaging ... he held his own, he tackled, he made 'more ground' than Jarvis, he chased ball from poor kicks leading the line in some. Jenkins ran himself into the ground, he may not have been match fit but was fitter than Jarvis. The only thing he didn't do was turn ball over, score a try or kick penalties.
 
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Agree with the ratings. Just hope that we have a strong line-up for Friday. Gonna be some huge huge huge hits, we need some sense smashed into us after Saturday! I'm not a fan of resting players for so called "lesser" nations. I know its physical, but its their job. They train day in day out to take and give hits!! If their carrying a knock, then fair enough, but if fit, they should play (that obviously to the In form players)
 
So what, Robinson is there ... Prydie should have been, fact is Robinson is there.

Jenkins still lasted longer than Jarvis ... and did more. I suggest you go back and follow his tracks, Jenkins did a lot and therefore ran himself into the ground. That is the truth.

That doesn't mean we have to pick him. We are just talking about the squad, and who should be there. Robinson would not be a good option, as I really don't think he could handle the match. He has played very little professional rugby for the Blues, and throwing him against Samoa would be awful. I think he is an outstanding prospect, but one that must not be rushed.

Even if Jenkins played for the full match, it does not mean he is fit. He is playing 20 minutes a week for Toulon, that is not enough for someone who is supposed to be our first choice loosehead. James has been in excellent form for Bath (I've watch him, and simply the best loosehead we have). Witch hunt, no. I am just trying to select players who I feel would be our best options.

My team for Samoa:
Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Hook (sorry James), Beck, North, Biggar, Phillips; James, Hibbard, Jarvis, Charteris, Evans, Jones (C)/Bearman*, Tipuric, Faletau; Rees, Jenkins, Lee, Davies, Shingler, WilliamsLl, WilliamsS, WilliamsLi

*Bearman has been in good form for the Ospreys, and I have no doubt that he would give 100% for the match. I would much rather see him play than Thomas, McCusker, Turnbull, Powell.
 
Even if Jenkins played for the full match, it does not mean he is fit. He is playing 20 minutes a week for Toulon, that is not enough for someone who is supposed to be our first choice loosehead. James has been in excellent form for Bath (I've watch him, and simply the best loosehead we have). Witch hunt, no. I am just trying to select players who I feel would be our best options.

It is a blatant witch hunt. You have overlooked what he did as have others for the fact he got subbed. Yes he hasn't played enough for Toulon, but fact remains he did a hell of a lot of work that yourself and others fail to acknowledge. Jenkins is the best option regardless. He offers more than James and the questionable scrummaging ... Jenkins came through it and did well, against a very strong Argentinian front row.
 
It is a blatant witch hunt. You have overlooked what he did as have others for the fact he got subbed. Yes he hasn't played enough for Toulon, but fact remains he did a hell of a lot of work that yourself and others fail to acknowledge. Jenkins is the best option regardless. He offers more than James and the questionable scrummaging ... Jenkins came through it and did well, against a very strong Argentinian front row.

I haven't said anything about him being substituted. He just did not look match fit, even with his contributions. He was not up to his normal massively high standard. I wouldn't really call that a strong Argentine front row. The whole perception of Puma packs seems a bit dated. Sure they are good, but not to the level many say. Our nippers gave their a good showing in June (Samson Lee being one of them). Johnston could very well start this week, and I feel James is a better scrummager. Also, considering we have options that side, we should rotate. We do not have this luxury on the tighthead side.
 
My team for Samoa:
Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Hook (sorry James), Beck, North, Biggar, Phillips; James, Hibbard, Jarvis, Charteris, Evans, Jones (C)/Bearman*, Tipuric, Faletau; Rees, Jenkins, Lee, Davies, Shingler, WilliamsLl, WilliamsS, WilliamsLi

*Bearman has been in good form for the Ospreys, and I have no doubt that he would give 100% for the match. I would much rather see him play than Thomas, McCusker, Turnbull, Powell.

I agree with that. Just one change I would make, obviously if Ryan Jones is fit he should start. But if not, I would quite like to see how playing Warburton and Tipuric together goes.

I haven't said anything about him being substituted. He just did not look match fit, even with his contributions. He was not up to his normal massively high standard. I wouldn't really call that a strong Argentine front row. The whole perception of Puma packs seems a bit dated. Sure they are good, but not to the level many say. Our nippers gave their a good showing in June (Samson Lee being one of them). Johnston could very well start this week, and I feel James is a better scrummager. Also, considering we have options that side, we should rotate. We do not have this luxury on the tighthead side.

This. This whole idea that the Pumas pack is formidable is dated as you say.

That was true over the team of the previous decade, but this side is different. It says it all, that Argentina's match winners were wingers, and a great back rower. That wouldn't happen in the previous era, where the front five dictated masterfully by Pichot were the match winners.

But more recently the pack does its job well enough and won't lose a match, but it isn't a match winner like in the days of the Ledesma, Roncero, Scelzo, Longo etc at their peak. If you look at the Pumas pack now, only really Albacete and Lobbe are world class, the rest are just okay, decent, or quite good. However on the flipside, Argentina is developing better wingers than ever before. If you look back during the early 2000's the wingers really weren't anything special, and wouldn't need to do much. But now Argentina can field some match winners on the wing, and have a choice of them.

Imhoff and Camacho did well on the weekend. Coming through are Manuel Montero (a very big Rougerie type winger which is another type of player which Argentina have never had) and Santiago Cordero who is a full back/winger full of tricks and was a surprise call up to tour this November after some good performances for the U20's.



Oh and by the way, Figallo is actually a #1 playing #3. So that lessens the scrum to what it perhaps could be as well, kind of like Paul James playing #3.
 
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It is a blatant witch hunt

No witch hunt. Why would we, he's been absolutely awesome for Wales throughout his career. But it is obvious that he's not match fit. He's being judged against his usual extremely high standard, and he comes up short. He put in 10 tackles, which is good, but isn't a massive amount. According to ESPN scrum stats (which I don't trust, but only ones available) he ran 2m with the ball. I didn't notice him clearing out that many rucks either. He was better than many, but still well below the high standards he's set.

This goes for every single player. Jarvis get's a pass because it was his first cap and he played as well as expected.
 
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My team for Samoa:
Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Hook (sorry James), Beck, North, Biggar, Phillips; James, Hibbard, Jarvis, Charteris, Evans, Jones (C)/Bearman*, Tipuric, Faletau; Rees, Jenkins, Lee, Davies, Shingler, WilliamsLl, WilliamsS, WilliamsLi

*Bearman has been in good form for the Ospreys, and I have no doubt that he would give 100% for the match. I would much rather see him play than Thomas, McCusker, Turnbull, Powell.


I really wouldn't feel safe giving ryan his first game back against samoa as knowing our look he will probably aggravate it again, Also Bearman deserves a shot as he has been playing well for the ospreys. he is more deserving of a place then McCusker or Turnbull
 
Before the match on Saturday I found myself, for the first time in a long time, not feeling any form of excitement that I would usually feel before a Welsh international. This was mainly down to the dreadful team selections of Rob Howley. I found myself questioning more positions than any fan should have to under a decent head coach. I also knew that, from previous games under Howley's leadership, I should not expect any sort of attractive attacking play (or perhaps even any attacking opportunities or creativity). As it turns out, my prediction of a lack of attacking creativity turned out to be entirely correct.

Why Howley decided to start Priestland over Biggar (who is head and shoulders a better all-round fly-half at present) I will never understand. If Priestland remains in the 10 jersey a minute longer during this Autumn series, I might just boycott watching the whole thing. His performance was not worthy of regional standards, let alone international. His tactical kicking was dire, and he missed touch on countless occasions. Wales needed to play a territory-based game against a hardened Argentine side, and Dan Biggar would have been the obvious (and perfect) selection to make for such a game. He has been kicking sublimely all season for the Ospreys, whilst still creating plenty of opportunities for the backs outside him. The likes of Cuthbert, Williams, and North never got a sniff of the ball in attack because of Priestlands current inability to make decisions.

Secondly, why on earth did Matthew Rees start? Richard Hibbard has been outstanding this season, playing his socks off week in, week out. Rees is way past his best and the Welsh management need to give him up, respect what he achieved as an international player and start developing the likes of Ken Owens, whilst playing a still fairly young Hibbard (28).

Thirdly, why did the management wait until the 70th minute to bring Tipuric on, who is arguably the best openside flanker in europe at the moment? Within seconds of his appearance he had turned the ball over in Wales' half and allowed the national side to clear their lines, something he has been doing all season for Ospreys. Warburton, as much as I admire his abilities and character, has dipped in form and needs to be playing from the bench. Aaron Shingler needed to start over Turnbull at blindside flanker (a decision that I found completely perplexing). Both flankers remained almost completely anonymous in both attack and defence throughout the game.

Jamie Roberts was another dodgy selection that just added to Wales' lack of creativity in the back line. Ashley Beck is just as physical but has an all-round attacking flair that I feel Roberts may never possess. Why not judge on form and start Beck at inside centre? Well, I think it's because Howley lives far too much in the past and, dare I say it, seems to favour certain players that have achieved past glories (the likes of Priestland, Roberts, Jenkins etc) in the hope they will replicate the traits they became renowned for 1+ years ago.

I think tactics has little to do with how poorly Wales played on the weekend. I think the overriding factor was the fact a team that is completely out of form was played in the hope that everything would work itself out and players would just ease back into Six Nations or World Cup form. No. Warren Gatland would have picked on form. And that is why I cannot wait for the Australia game when we are finally reunited with his superior selecting and head coaching abilities.

This would be the team I would select for the Samoa game, to get the ball rolling again:

1. Paul James, 2. Richard Hibbard, 3. Aaron Jarvis, 4. Luke Charteris, 5. Ian Evans, 6. Ryan Jones (C) (if fit, if not Shingler), 7. Justin Tipuric, 8. Toby Faletau; 9. Mike Phillips, 10. Dan Biggar, 11. Leigh Halfpenny (explained at fullback), 12. Ashley Beck, 13. Scott Williams/ Jonathan Davies (if fit), 14. George North, 15. Liam Williams (his club form has been too good to ignore)

Bench: Jenkins, Bevington, Owens, AW Jones, Warburton, Knoyle, Hook, Cuthbert
 
I don't see a point of calling Bearman into the squad. What is he, 33, 34? Giving a debut to someone of his age is really not worth it. He had a genuine chance of getting called into the squad a few years ago when he was playing well for the Dragons, but an untimely injury ruled him out of contention. I'd call Powell into the squad personally. He's always given his all for Wales and is playing well atm. He also wouldn't be available for the Aus game though, but the management have already decided that the Scarlets trio are the answer. It really does show that the regions need to start playing actual 8's instead of shifting blindsides across. Jon Thomas, McCusker and Pretorius are not 8's and it's hurting both region and country. The Scarlets should be starting Murphy, and Hamilton has looked promising for the Blues when played there at the end of last season. O's could give more game time to Morgan Allen who's not had much opportunities at all.

I really wouldn't feel safe giving ryan his first game back against samoa as knowing our look he will probably aggravate it again, Also Bearman deserves a shot as he has been playing well for the ospreys. he is more deserving of a place then McCusker or Turnbull

We have no option but starting Ryan Jones if fit, it'd be insane not to. He's not been injured for long, so should be able to step back in. His leadership would also be important.

@ Ospreylian, spot on for the most part. I understand that Beck wasn't available for this game due to injury, as was Bradley Davies, but I've heard nothing about if they will be available for the Samoa game. Also, regarding your choice of Liam Williams, I would personally stick with Halfpenny who has imo been the best fullback in the NH over the past year. He wasn't at his best v Argentina, but he will bounce back against Samoa I believe. Cuthbert has also been in fine form this season and he tried his damnedest in this game, but was not given any opportunities. Liam Williams started the season with a bang, but has waned somewhat along with the rest of the Scarlets team. I wouldn't be completely against him starting, but would prefer to see him come off the bench.
 
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Who else have we got?
I know Bearman would play 60 minutes as good as anybody. It's now just about winning.
 
Who else have we got?
I know Bearman would play 60 minutes as good as anybody. It's now just about winning.

I personally don't see any circumstance where we should be giving a first cap to a 33 (almost 34) year old. Yes this is a must win game, but that is no excuse. As I said Powell would be a better option if we were to get someone else in the squad over Turnbull and McCusker. At least he's two years younger and an experienced international.

We wouldn't even know if Bearman would play well. Not every player makes the step-up to international rugby and plays well on their first cap, no matter how good their regional form is. Hell, Aled Brew never managed it, despite being consistently excellent for the Dragons.
 
1. Paul James, 2. Richard Hibbard, 3. Aaron Jarvis, 4. Luke Charteris, 5. Ian Evans, 6. Ryan Jones 7. Justin Tipuric, 8. Toby Faletau; 9. Mike Phillips, 10. Dan Biggar, 11. Leigh Halfpenny 12. Ashley Beck, 13. Jonathan Davies 14. George North, 15. Liam Williams

16. Ken Owens, 17. Gethin Jenkins, 18. Samson Lee, 19. Bradley Davies, 20. Sam Warburton, 21. Travis Knoyle, 22. James Hook, 23. Alex Cuthbert

That would be my Welsh 23
 
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1. Paul James, 2. Richard Hibbard, 3. Aaron Jarvis, 4. Luke Charteris, 5. Ian Evans, 6. Ryan Jones 7. Justin Tipuric, 8. Toby Faletau; 9. Mike Phillips, 10. Dan Biggar, 11. Leigh Halfpenny 12. Ashley Beck, 13. Jonathan Davies 14. George North, 15. Liam Williams

16. Ken Owens, 17. Gethin Jenkins, 18. Samson Lee, 19. Bradley Davies, 20. Sam Warburton, 21. Travis Knoyle, 22. James Hook, 23. Alex Cuthbert

That would be my Samoa 23


But those players are all Welsh!
 
1. Paul James, 2. Richard Hibbard, 3. Aaron Jarvis, 4. Luke Charteris, 5. Ian Evans, 6. Ryan Jones 7. Justin Tipuric, 8. Toby Faletau; 9. Mike Phillips, 10. Dan Biggar, 11. Leigh Halfpenny 12. Ashley Beck, 13. Jonathan Davies 14. George North, 15. Liam Williams

16. Ken Owens, 17. Gethin Jenkins, 18. Samson Lee, 19. Bradley Davies, 20. Sam Warburton, 21. Travis Knoyle, 22. James Hook, 23. Alex Cuthbert

That would be my Samoa 23

I would go with that but Gethin (our best loosehead) who 'needs' game time should get the necessary game time. Also Lloyd for Knoyle.

But bar that the 23 is how I would pick it.
 
I would go with that but Gethin (our best loosehead) who 'needs' game time should get the necessary game time. Also Lloyd for Knoyle.

But bar that the 23 is how I would pick it.

We may disagree on how well he played v Argentina, but you make a good point here. Here we all are saying that Gethin is lacking match fitness due to a lack of gametime, and we want to drop Gethin. Gethin will get better the more he plays, so I'd be happy to see him start. Have Paul James cover his actual position of looshead off the bench though.
 
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Lloyd Peers has been called up to train with the squad to act as Second Row cover. Wales team will be announced Wednesday lunchtime.
 
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