[EOYT] England vs New Zealand 16/11/13

[FlukeArtist]

Originally Posted by first5eight
England have absolutely no chance. The ABs have been stewing on this 12 months and Saturday is a day for redemption. Plus DCs 100th and a perfect year on the cards. Its all shaping up nicely and I'm predicting an absolute massacre by at least 25+.

Also the England coach hinting at winning by 4 try's to move into 2nd in the rankings.. please.. put the pipe down old chap. In the next 12 months we play the English 5 times, I'm predicting 5-0 to the ABs. The poms had their once in a decade win last year and hope they enjoyed it because normal service resumes on Saturday.

And they call the English arrogant when it comes to sport...

Hi Patchey,

I can see how this can be construed as arrogance.
But I have to say; I tend to agree with what first5 has written.
I think the ABs will be fizzing at the bunghole for this one, and if England don't bring their A game, they could get massacred.

I read in the NZ Herald this morning the coaches are really mentally firing up the ABs for this one.
They apparently called ahead to their hotel in London and left a message for the team saying "We are the most dominant team in the history of the world"
ref: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11156018

 

[FlukeArtist]

Originally Posted by first5eight
Of course it's a big fall because its very rare that we actually lose.

The price for success.

As a fan; i'll gladly pay that price.

Certainly beats the alternative.

 

[kesh]

Hi Patchey,

I can see how this can be construed as arrogance.
But I have to say; I tend to agree with what first5 has written.
I think the ABs will be fizzing at the bunghole for this one, and if England don't bring their A game, they could get massacred.

I read in the NZ Herald this morning the coaches are really mentally firing up the ABs for this one.
They apparently called ahead to their hotel in London and left a message for the team saying "We are the most dominant team in the history of the world"
ref: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11156018

Cheers for the ref, prefer Kiwi commentary during matches. Some time killers in there.

Not sure what effect the Wales game had on this England side. As in, if a few decisions start going against them and the run of play also, will they adapt quick and learn from it (the Wales game) or fold up and die and have the AB's carve their defense to bits. Cant see that at Twickenham, think the crowd will be excited enough for this fixture to encourage them should things turn.

Containing this AB scoring machine for the full 80 minutes wont be possible, so i hope they're fizzing enough to get a sin bin or two and keep the penalty count ticking over enough. Or just drop the ball entirely.

 

[Larksea]

I think the ABs will win this one and rub out the marks left from last years effort which was kind of forgivable considering it was at the end of a very long season and a virus went through the camp mid week.

only changes I want to see are Ben franks on the bench and Hore involved, probably starting. Savea back at 11, Piutau at 14 and Barrett on the bench, I think Barrett has proven to be a better bench performer than Cruden. Picking the wings is hard as Jane did look very assured last weekend. But Piutau is the man of the moment and Savea has been huge this year.

Aaron Smith needs to cut down on the pointless kicks, after a strong start to the year hes kinda lost ground, really want to see a strong performance at 9

a winning season would be something else, crazy its just a couple games away, still requires a huge effort. The closer it gets the harder it will be with teams throwing everything at the ABs and playing like they have nothing to lose.

 

[kesh]

Barrett on the bench, I think Barrett has proven to be a better bench performer than Cruden.

Ridiculous the strength in depth AB's have at 10. <_<

 

[Zed]

England have been looking pretty ordinary and need players for key positions, most notably 10 & 13. I don't think Farrell's got it. Maybe in a few years? NZ should win comfortably. But that said, England have had a pretty good run the last year or so - they've lost 1 game from 10, is that right? And when you've had a good run like that, it has a positive psychological effect on a team, they garner self belief and have a winning mentality. I wish Kiwi fans wouldn't continually raise the whole "virus" or "we were tired" excuses. If they were sick they shouldn't have played and brought in replacements. I don't hear other nations moaning about being tired or being sick.. irrespectively even if they were so sick that they were unable to perform at their best, you just take it on the chin and don't whine about it.

I think England have nothing to lose, the last time they played the All Blacks they beat them convincingly, they've won 2/2 for the autumn tests so I think they'll really take it the All Blacks. Perhaps if they had lost to Australia or Argentina, then I'd say the All Blacks would win convincingly, but I think it will be close.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Ridiculous the strength in depth AB's have at 10. <_<

Well you guys have Farrel, Flood and Burns

 

[kesh]

Well you guys have Farrel, Flood and Burns

..and Ford. Hopefully Burns is our Barrett. Whats going on with Conrad now that Ben is his defacto replacement? Havent followed. Would be nice to face a AB's side without Conrads ability to open us up and gurn from time to time. Is he anywhere near as good?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

..and Ford. Hopefully Burns is our Barrett. Whats going on with Conrad now that Ben is his defacto replacement? Havent followed. Would be nice to face a AB's side without Conrads ability to open us up and gurn from time to time. Is he anywhere near as good?

Conrad's on a sabbatical, Ben's still very much learning about the position, but he's making good strides.

It will be very interesting to see what happens when Conrad returns next year (and for 2015), because we'll have Conrad and Nonu as the main centres, with Dagg, Ben, Piutau, Jane and Savea all competing for outside backs spots (throw in Crotty, Saili, Halai and McNicholl, plus Kahui and SBW will likely be back in 2015 too!).

 

[Darwin]

England have been looking pretty ordinary and need players for key positions, most notably 10 & 13. I don't think Farrell's got it. Maybe in a few years? NZ should win comfortably. But that said, England have had a pretty good run the last year or so - they've lost 1 game from 10, is that right? And when you've had a good run like that, it has a positive psychological effect on a team, they garner self belief and have a winning mentality. I wish Kiwi fans wouldn't continually raise the whole "virus" or "we were tired" excuses. If they were sick they shouldn't have played and brought in replacements. I don't hear other nations moaning about being tired or being sick.. irrespectively even if they were so sick that they were unable to perform at their best, you just take it on the chin and don't whine about it.

I think England have nothing to lose, the last time they played the All Blacks they beat them convincingly, they've won 2/2 for the autumn tests so I think they'll really take it the All Blacks. Perhaps if they had lost to Australia or Argentina, then I'd say the All Blacks would win convincingly, but I think it will be close.

All but two players in the squad ended up with Norovirus. Are you suggesting they should have sent another 21 players over to England? The fact that many of the AB's were not physically at their best was likely contributed to the result of the last match. I don't see anyone here "moaning" about it. Posters have simply pointed out that it was probably a contributing factor to last years result (along with many other factors - a major one being that England played bloody well!).

..and Ford. Hopefully Burns is our Barrett. Whats going on with Conrad now that Ben is his defacto replacement? Havent followed. Would be nice to face a AB's side without Conrads ability to open us up and gurn from time to time. Is he anywhere near as good?

As a centre? No, not yet. Conrad Smith is a world class centre, but Ben is still learning the position (as Mr Fish says). He has the potential to be a world class centre, but he would probably need to concentrate on the position for a year or two. He is a world class outside back though. He was in outstanding form this season at fullback for the Highlanders (I suspect he will be named New Zealand Super Rugby player of the Year), and on the wing during the Rugby Championship (breaking the Rugby Championship try scoring record with 8 tries in 6 matches). He has been a lot quieter in the more confined spaces at centre, but if he is given space he could cause England a lot of problems....

 

[Kapa O Pango]

brain o'driscoll

 

[kesh]

As a centre? No, not yet. Conrad Smith is a world class centre, but Ben is still learning the position (as Mr Fish says). He has the potential to be a world class centre, but he would probably need to concentrate on the position for a year or two. He is a world class outside back though. He was in outstanding form this season at fullback for the Highlanders (I suspect he will be named New Zealand Super Rugby player of the Year), and on the wing during the Rugby Championship (breaking the Rugby Championship try scoring record with 8 tries in 6 matches). He has been a lot quieter in the more confined spaces at centre, but if he is given space he could cause England a lot of problems....

Thats underscoring it abit, his the best centre IMO at what he does. But as Mr Fish says, having SBW coming back too... should add a different dimension. I like the way you guys sabbatical the really great players, its a good tactic. Once again, great replacement possibly in the making. Though i feel losing Conrad especially would be a huge miss, for any side. Like England losing Robinson.

 

[Darwin]

Thats underscoring it abit, his the best centre IMO at what he does. But as Mr Fish says, having SBW coming back too... should add a different dimension. I like the way you guys sabbatical the really great players, its a good tactic. Once again, great replacement possibly in the making. Though i feel losing Conrad especially would be a huge miss, for any side. Like England losing Robinson.

Make no mistake - I think Conrad Smith is the best centre in the world. I just didn't want to say it out loud, as I feared the thread would be hijacked by some delusional Irish posters ;-)

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Make no mistake - I think Conrad Smith is the best centre in the world. I just didn't want to say it out loud, as I feared the thread would be hijacked by some delusional Irish posters ;-)

One thing I've never understood was why Graham Henry omitted Conrad Smith in that 2007 WC QF with France; Tana Umaga had retired by then, but instead of choosing his ready made replacement in Conrad, Graham shoe-horned Mils Muliaina into the 13 shirt. I remember thinking at the time the All Blacks had not learnt after doing the same with Leon Macdonald in 2003 and Cullen in 1999. 13 seems to always be a problem position, relatively speaking, for the All Blacks.

Edit - at least with Ben Smith they are giving him a few games with 2 years to go to RWC 2015 to play at outside centre in case anything does happen to Conrad.

 

[Patchey]

I predict an imminent 'Irishing' of this thread...


Ben Smith should, if there is any justice, be IRB Player of the Year. The fact he isn't even NZ's first choice 13 is disgusting. It makes our fumbling around with Tompkins look pretty sad really.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

One thing I've never understood was why Graham Henry omitted Conrad Smith in that 2007 WC QF with France; Tana Umaga had retired by then, but instead of choosing his ready made replacement in Conrad, Graham shoe-horned Mils Muliaina into the 13 shirt. I remember thinking at the time the All Blacks had not learnt after doing the same with Leon Macdonald in 2003 and Cullen in 1999. 13 seems to always be a problem position, relatively speaking, for the All Blacks.

Edit - at least with Ben Smith they are giving him a few games with 2 years to go to RWC 2015 to play at outside centre in case anything does happen to Conrad.

Conrad Smith was out with injury for a long period of time, and wasn't really adequately up to speed, or at least wasn't judged to be by the selectors. I don't think Muliaina was poor at centre in any respect. That wasn't one of the reasons we lost the world cup.

 

[nickdnz]

One thing I've never understood was why Graham Henry omitted Conrad Smith in that 2007 WC QF with France; Tana Umaga had retired by then, but instead of choosing his ready made replacement in Conrad, Graham shoe-horned Mils Muliaina into the 13 shirt. I remember thinking at the time the All Blacks had not learnt after doing the same with Leon Macdonald in 2003 and Cullen in 1999. 13 seems to always be a problem position, relatively speaking, for the All Blacks.

Edit - at least with Ben Smith they are giving him a few games with 2 years to go to RWC 2015 to play at outside centre in case anything does happen to Conrad.

Well, for the last three Rugby World Cups. Tana Umaga and Conrad Smith have over 120 caps at centre, just unlucky Umaga was injured in 2003 and Smith injured for 2007. Realatively speaking I wouldn't trade our luck in the centres for any other nations.

 

[Darwin]

One thing I've never understood was why Graham Henry omitted Conrad Smith in that 2007 WC QF with France; Tana Umaga had retired by then, but instead of choosing his ready made replacement in Conrad, Graham shoe-horned Mils Muliaina into the 13 shirt. I remember thinking at the time the All Blacks had not learnt after doing the same with Leon Macdonald in 2003 and Cullen in 1999. 13 seems to always be a problem position, relatively speaking, for the All Blacks.

Edit - at least with Ben Smith they are giving him a few games with 2 years to go to RWC 2015 to play at outside centre in case anything does happen to Conrad.

I think it was a case of the AB's selectors trying to get the best players on the field, rather than choosing the best players in each position. Conrad Smith wasn't half the player back then as he is now (and he was recovering from injury at the time), while Muliaina and MacDonald were both in great form. I don't think the selection of Muliaina at centre was that out of the blue though - he spent almost the entire 2006 Tri-Nations at centre. As Mr Fish said, Muliaina actually did a pretty good job at centre in the World Cup (unlike our makeshift centres in the 1999 and 2007 ).

I predict an imminent 'Irishing' of this thread...


Ben Smith should, if there is any justice, be IRB Player of the Year. The fact he isn't even NZ's first choice 13 is disgusting. It makes our fumbling around with Tompkins look pretty sad really.

As someone who have raved for years about the greatness of Ben Smith nothing would bring me more joy. However I suspect the following fella may have something to say about it:

 

[nickdnz]

I'd personally go with Read over Smith for IRB player of the year by some distance. If you genuinely think who has been the best and most important player in terms of the All Blacks winning - it's Read by a mile.

 

[Chikwa]

Swap Piutau and Ben Smith around,Smith is more dangerous on the wing and Piutau would make a better center then Smith.

Interesting thought Piatau'a defence has been good in all the tests his played.His ability to offload and release others in tight spaces.he is an intelligent rugby player who could learn to play in that position.