[EOYT] England vs New Zealand 16/11/13

[Packman]

Now, now...that picture could offend the Muslims, you know....

Oh and since we're doing the English pride thing, I couldn't resist posting this one I found...it's so incredibly exaggerated, I had to post it here:
View attachment 2525

Although its always good to wind up the Welsh (although its a lot easier when they haven't kicked your ass earlier in the year), I'd like to put a Kiwi spin on this by suggesting that the dragon is in fact a tuatara lizard that found its way onto a French cruise ship and fell into its nuclear reactor. (It's a well known fact that all french sea-going vessels have nuclear reactors and they usually go to Auckland to give 'em a good clean out.) Anyway, the Tuatara promptly turns into godzilla and attacks Auckland. The NZ navy valiantly try to stop it but their war kayaks, windsurfcruisers and battle surfboards only succeed in driving it away from Auckland towards Wellington. The rest of New Zealand groan and say stuff like typical bleedin Aucklanders! I bet they did it on purpose. Luckily, NZ have kept strong ties with England and call on us to protect them. Unfortunately, due to defense cuts, all we can afford to do is sent some crazy scrumpy addicted farmer who thinks he's the Roman Emperor Nero, which is pretty close to St George. M briefs Nero saying that he's undercover and he's to tell everyone that he's George, The patron saint of England, oh and try to tone down the Italian accent, lay off the Spaghetti Alpha-bites and eat lots of fish and chips. Anyway, George and Terry the Tuatara square up just outside Wellington and are busy trading insults when this woman from the New Zealand Conservation Authority turns up (I threw in a woman so I couldn't be accused of being non PC.) wearing the NZCA regulation one piece leopard skin see-through leotard (Ah, balls.) The woman introduces herself as Foxy McTits and tells George that he can't kill Terry because the Tuatara is an endangered species. George is a bit put out because he's traveled half way round the world for a good scrap and now some raving animal hugging bleeding heart hippy is whining about it. Foxy, being a shrewd and astute lady (that ought ta get me back in the green) buys George a pint of Sassy Red and promises him a good time if he'll chase Tezza into the Zealandia nature reserve where they can lock the door and feed him Kiwi birds, Kaka parrots and patkeke duck. Mmmm duck!

And so George fights Terry all the way to the gates of Zealandia and Foxy is about to open the gate when a hoard or cats, dogs, rats, possums and any other small furry mammal types you can think of jump out from behind a dust bin and eat Terry up. "Ah F*** it," says Foxy, "Lets get ****ed."

Meanwhile The French cruise ship sails merrily away, heading for Japan, unaware of the clutch of glowing green eggs in the ships hold.... Badahdaaaaaaaah!

 

[Chikwa]

Get your excuses in early Kiwi's, you never know

You don't sound absolutely sure yourself. But you are right it may be a very close game.

 

[Prestwick]

You don't sound absolutely sure yourself. But you are right it may be a very close game.

It does appear that the RFU and Lancaster are getting our excuses in for us with this horrendous Chinese water torture method of announcing an injury a day...

 

[Patchey]

Chinese water torture method, I like that analogy.

Is the team announced tomorrow?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Chinese water torture method, I like that analogy.

Is the team announced tomorrow?

Yes, same as the last two weeks; 10.45am GMT. 22 hours to go.

http://www.rfu.com/qbeinternationals

 

[Crapspray]

Well, he's announcing the squad from a 23-player group. The only thing really in doubt is if Hartley starts over Youngs. Apart from that Parling and Wilson may start, but I think it's highly unlikely; Lawes has done nothing wrong and Wilson didn't do enough right to suggest he should start ahead of Cole.

On paper it looks bad, but it looked worse last year. I'll give myself another day to dream and then prepare for the worst...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Expected/probable England line up v last year's line up:

1. Marler v Corbs - England are poorer scrummage wise, but may gain in the loose;
2. Hartley v Youngs - gain at line up time; lose a little in the loose, but would still have Youngs ball carrying in the 2nd half;
3. Dan Cole - same as last year;
4. Launchbury - same as last year;
5. Lawes v Parling - gain in Athleticism in Lawes and still have Parling to come on in the 2nd half;
6. Wood - same as last year;
7. Robshaw - same as last year;
8. Vunipola v Morgan - horses for courses really. At least we are stronger here than v Wales when we had Wood here.

9. Dickson v Ben Youngs - gain on better, quicker delivery from Dickson and still have Youngs to come on to exploit his running round the fringes in the last 20 or so mins;
10. Farrell - same as last year;
11. Foden v Brown - gain as Foden has more pace than Brown on the wing;
12. 36 v Barritt- gain 36s better distribution, kicking game, but lose Barritt's better defensive game; overall I think we gain;
13. Tomkins v Tuilagi - lose TUilagi's line breaking ability, but gain Tomkims more defensive solidity;
14. Ashton - same as last year;
15. Brown v Goode - gain compared to last year.

Overall, the loss of Corbs and Tuilagi are the real downers, but no need to get too pessimistic.

 

[Prestwick]

Expected/probable England line up v last year's line up:

1. Marler v Corbs - England are poorer scrummage wise, but may gain in the loose;
2. Hartley v Youngs - gain at line up time; lose a little in the loose, but would still have Youngs ball carrying in the 2nd half;
3. Dan Cole - same as last year;
4. Launchbury - same as last year;
5. Lawes v Parling - gain in Athleticism in Lawes and still have Parling to come on in the 2nd half;
6. Wood - same as last year;
7. Robshaw - same as last year;
8. Vunipola v Morgan - horses for courses really. At least we are stronger here than v Wales when we had Wood here.

9. Dickson v Ben Youngs - gain on better, quicker delivery from Dickson and still have Youngs to come on to exploit his running round the fringes in the last 20 or so mins;
10. Farrell - same as last year;
11. Foden v Brown - gain as Foden has more pace than Brown on the wing;
12. 36 v Barritt- gain 36s better distribution, kicking game, but lose Barritt's better defensive game; overall I think we gain;
13. Tomkins v Tuilagi - lose TUilagi's line breaking ability, but gain Tomkims more defensive solidity;
14. Ashton - same as last year;
15. Brown v Goode - gain compared to last year.

Overall, the loss of Corbs and Tuilagi are the real downers, but no need to get too pessimistic.

We should gain on offloading with Tompkins. I say, nay, stress should because despite him showing off his offloading ability at club level in both codes and international level in league he hasn't really done it here for England.

He really needs to back himself and trust those next to him because something is stopping him from doing what confess naturally to him which is a shame.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

The Blindside, just a few things:

Firstly marler isn't better in the loose than Corbisiero. The latter is simply more understated in the way he goes about his work. In my opinion he's a far better carrier than our other props, not because he's huge but because he has better carrying technique(body position, legs moving)
And to be honest Tuilagi in my opinion is a better defender than Tomkins

To me the problem with our attacking game isn't just we have some average players in certain positions, its also that our game-plan is almost too tought out. We seem to not think we can attack unless in a certain position.

It's like when we get an attacking scrum or lineout, our backs suddenly go "**** guys, this is the part where we're supposed to do that attacking thing...you know, the thing you do with the ball..."

Then what follows is a completely sterile and predictable move. Our players are not playing heads up, those of them who are creative are not being told(it seems to me) to play whats in front of them but to play the plan.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Our best attacking play has been when Flood has been on and said "sod it" to the pre-planned move and taken on the gainline himself - other than counters from Mike Brown, and Twelvetrees' try, can't really recall our backs really going at the gainline.
I hope he gets some game time at 10 this weekend, rather than at 12 again - think he could really bring 36 and Tomkins into the game. They're both pretty big guys, and Flood getting them going right at the gainline, rather than Farrell getting them going 5m back, will trouble defences far more.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Our best attacking play has been when Flood has been on and said "sod it" to the pre-planned move and taken on the gainline himself - other than counters from Mike Brown, and Twelvetrees' try, can't really recall our backs really going at the gainline.
I hope he gets some game time at 10 this weekend, rather than at 12 again - think he could really bring 36 and Tomkins into the game. They're both pretty big guys, and Flood getting them going right at the gainline, rather than Farrell getting them going 5m back, will trouble defences far more.

This - the best thing Tomkins has done was when he hasn't had the ball - such as for Twelvetrees' try.

Flood would be my answer - if only because when he's taking it up he looks like he's ball-room dancing, which may take the opposition by surprise and give us an advantage.

Has anybody seen enough Bath games this season to comment on what Joseph might be doing/not doing in order to not get picked? I'm seeing Bath Wasps in a few weeks so will be able to take a good look at him hopefully.

 

[kesh]

We should gain on offloading with Tompkins. I say, nay, stress should because despite him showing off his offloading ability at club level in both codes and international level in league he hasn't really done it here for England.

He really needs to back himself and trust those next to him because something is stopping him from doing what confess naturally to him which is a shame.

Is it consistency Tompkins lacks? I've seen a few games where his had a absolute stormer of a game and then others where i wouldn't of known he was playing. Same at Wigan really. Shame Union didn't try harder tapping his brother. His a real'n.

Would like to see Eastmond given a go, just to see how it went, might not work, though we tend to pick two big fellas at centre and then wonder why we look wooden in attack. One battering ram and one zippy centre works well enough for the AB's. Then again, we can't all have AB's luck in the centres.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just hasn't been performing that well.
As said in another thread Bath's games haven't been blessed with the weather for running rugby, which explains both Eastmond and JJ not looking great this season.
A cynic might say that he stood out in previous years because irish were poor, and now he's no longer a big fish...
Don't think I'd subscribe to that, mind.

I've never been a big fan of Tomkins but he was the right choice for this series after a strong start to the season.
I would've tried Trinder last week, but apparently he's struggling with a leg injury, so...yeah.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Kyle's struggled a bit this season - none of it really his fault though.
A combo of being injured in the first game of the season, all but one of the games he's played in being in torrential rain and being outside Ford who seems to want to do it all himself.
Btw I'm not having a go at Ford, because he's played the conditions and he's done well most of the time - but in the match against Worcester Ford passed the ball 2 times in the 80 minutes he played; neither of those were to Kyle.
Needless to say, those things also apply to JJ.

 

[Peat]

Can't really agree with a lot of this....

Expected/probable England line up v last year's line up:

1. Marler v Corbs - England are poorer scrummage wise, but may gain in the loose; - Henry's touched on this, but we certainly won't. Corbs is a bigger, stronger man and it shows when he carries, but he's not slow. He has regularly been one of the top tight five carriers for England and he hits plenty of rucks for England. Corbs is simply a better all round player. The only things Marler MIGHT have is hands.
2. Hartley v Youngs - gain at line up time; lose a little in the loose, but would still have Youngs ball carrying in the 2nd half; - Youngs' rush defence in midfield was outstanding last year. Even if Hartley stays at his current level of carrying two games on the trot - dubious - it's quite a lot to lose in the loose.
3. Dan Cole - same as last year; - Not in the same form imo
4. Launchbury - same as last year; -Looks bigger and stronger
5. Lawes v Parling - gain in Athleticism in Lawes and still have Parling to come on in the 2nd half; Big question - is Lawes going to work as hard as Parling? I'd rather have Parling carrying the ball too
6. Wood - same as last year;
7. Robshaw - same as last year;
8. Vunipola v Morgan - horses for courses really. At least we are stronger here than v Wales when we had Wood here. WERD TO THE LAST SENTENCE. Morgan has looked far cleverer at hitting a gap and making a break over his England career to date.

9. Dickson v Ben Youngs - gain on better, quicker delivery from Dickson and still have Youngs to come on to exploit his running round the fringes in the last 20 or so mins;
10. Farrell - same as last year; Improved open play, decreased goal kicking
11. Foden v Brown - gain as Foden has more pace than Brown on the wing;
12. 36 v Barritt- gain 36s better distribution, kicking game, but lose Barritt's better defensive game; overall I think we gain; 36's distribution is very rarely used. Its his better running I'm more interested in. I think we are missing Barritt's defensive organisation.
13. Tomkins v Tuilagi - lose TUilagi's line breaking ability, but gain Tomkims more defensive solidity; Tell that to Kuadrini... too late, he spotted it himself!
14. Ashton - same as last year;
15. Brown v Goode - gain compared to last year.

Overall, the loss of Corbs and Tuilagi are the real downers, but no need to get too pessimistic.

The main thing to be pessimistic about how is how much better we can expect the All Blacks to be.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Can't really agree with a lot of this....



The main thing to be pessimistic about how is how much better we can expect the All Blacks to be.

Fair enough; but my point was really show that we really have a lot of the players from last year's match v the All Blacks still available. Whether SL selects Hartley over Youngs, or Lawes over Parling or Vunipola over Morgan or whether players are better compared to last year is beside the point, Youngs, Parling and Morgan are still available. England have to have the requisite depth and develop competition so that come 2 years time, when England do have an injury to an important player they can slot players seamlessly into the team e.g. Tom Croft being injured, but no-one's batted an eyelid as Tom Wood is easily a good enough replacement. As soon as we get an injury to another important England player, like Corbisiero and Tuilagi injured there appears to be a very pessimistic reaction amongst England fans, when what it really shows is that the understudies for those positions aren't good enough and fans don't have enough confidence in their replacement.

Yes, the All Blacks are better this year compared to last year, particularly developing players to slot in for McCaw (Cane), Barrett as an alternative backup to Carter and Cruden, Ben Smith for Corey Jane and now Conrad Smith, Luatua for Messam. That's the kind of depth England have to develop for 2 years time.

 

[Lardinho]

we had the rub of the green last year, as Wales did against England in the 6 nations. Both sides till would have won without, but it'd have been a lot tighter. We will be shagged in the scrum as it seems we do not know how to prop decently since Vickery, White and Sheridan retired. Mako should only ever be used as a substitute prop until he spends a good year learning his trade properly, just the technical ins and outs of scrummaging. Regardless of dynamism, we need some big strong props, Corbisiero is the only one even close and he's still not in the same vein as Sheridan, Vickery or White. This is an area that needs the most amount of work before the next work cup. Hookers are fine.

2nd row, must start with Parling and Launchberry, Spider is great to come on as impact replacement but until he can perform for 80 minutes as he does as a sub, like many other players have learned to do, then reward the harder workers. Not an area for worry but would be nice to have a 4th option who is more quality than Attwood.

Back row will be fine when injuries aren't killing us. Wood and Croft are superb natural athelites and workhorses, if he's picked, Robshaw is a good bet for playing his heart out but one does need to give way for Billy. Also we NEED Stefon playing, the Welsh pick players abroad after initially refusing which ****ed them of a superb scrum half in Dwayne Peel, but now reneged. We need to do the same, Sheridan might not want to play but Stefon does and he should be there starting with Billy on the bench, would need to see them playing together from the start against a lower side before trying them together against a bit side. Great to have Morgan in there too, awesome strength here.

The 9.s I'm not worried about, not a big fan of Dickson, but between Youngs and Care we have it sewn up and Dickson can play a good game if needs be.

The 10s have been talked about christ knows how much, between the two main protagonists I agree to keep going with Farrell, need to make sure the young lads coming through get lots of time with the Saxons.

Now... I said this when he was in the under 18s world cup on here a long time ago, when I last posted... I called for us to get Eastmond over to union, well it happened and he's shown massive talent. Not sure I'd gamble on putting him and Tomkins in the 2 centre berths without a lot more practise but I'd certainly put Eastmond on the bench to take over from Twelvetrees as it'll take a while for Tomkins to get used to Twelvetree's natural union centre play being as fresh from league as he is and not knowing exactly what is needed yet. Eastmond does understand this, however and would love to keep Tomkins on for the 80 and give Eastmond 25-30 towards the end inside him (!).

Ashton can play this match until the injured return but there's plenty of cover here if needs be. Foden is good but it's a joke having him on the wing.

Brown... no doubt he's the best English fullback for the past 2-3 seasons. Finally allowed to show that he's up for it and can contain the fire he has and the in your face approach, love watching him play. Foden is the next best thing but needs to keep on the track of getting back to his best, not far off now after some great displays for club.

All in all we need a few more wingers to step up, the fact we're still playing Ashton reminds me of how they used to play Hick and Ramprakash failure after failure for England. He needs at least a year out, should head to the southern hemisphere for a year, they'd pay good money and he could do with it to refind what he missed. Yarde is like a glass rose, beautiful to look at and sleek but easily breakable, hope he's not dogged by injury just when he needs a good 10-15 caps in a row to establish himself. I'm a big fan on Yarde though. Wade I need more convincing about though, not the most deserving Lion ever would like to see more.

I think if it goes to form, it should be England 23 - New Zealand 41

 

[Dizzy]

Ive got a feeling we're going to win very very comfortably..

 

[rugby_mad]

AB named to face England..

Starting XV:

1. Tony Woodcock (106)
2. Keven Mealamu (109)
3. Owen Franks (52)
4. Brodie Retallick (22)
5. Samuel Whitelock (49)
6. Liam Messam (27)
7. Richie McCaw - captain (122)
8. Kieran Read (59)
9. Aaron Smith (24)
10. Daniel Carter (99)
11. Julian Savea (18)
12. Ma'a Nonu (86)
13. Ben Smith (24)
14. Charles Piutau (9)
15. Israel Dagg (36)

Reserves:
16. Dane Coles (13)
17. Wyatt Crockett (22)
18. Charlie Faumuina (15)
19. Luke Romano (15)
20. Steven Luatua (9)
21. Tawera Kerr-Barlow (13)
22. Aaron Cruden (27)
23. Ryan Crotty (3)

Go All Blacks!!!

 

[Darwin]

Not a bad looking ABs side :-D

Not too far off what I would have predicted - the only slight surprises for me are at hooker and the loose forward cover on the bench. Given the way the ABs have rotated their hookers this year I expected to see Hore starting but he didn't make the 23. Mealamu had one of his best games of the season last weekend so hopefully he can perform again. While I'm not surprised to see Romano included in the 23 (as I feel the ABs need a genuine lock on the bench, and Romano is regarded as a very good scrummager) I expected him to be included instead of Luatua rather than Cane. I'm not overly phased by the selection though, as Cane would normally only be brought on if McCaw came off injured...

I'm glad Piutau has been rewarded with another start - Jane did look sharp on his return but Piutau has been a real weapon in recent weeks....