[EOYT] England vs. Argentina 09/11/13

[marianodan]

We'll see what happens, Argentina usually performs better (even if losing at the end) on matches were everyone writes them off beforehand. I really don't know what to expect in this one.

 

[Big Ewis]

The other Armitages: I think there are two other brothers, Guy and another younger one who were both at Toulon. I think Guy may be back at Irish permanently now, having been loaned their before, but I am unsure. Either way, not England standard.

: lol : : rofl :
"THE OTHER ARMITAGES", like they're some awkward species of mammals, that was so funny to read !!
And...there isn't more, is there ?!

And out of the Toulon players, I think only Delon Armitage, and possibly his flanker brother, could really help England. He's still playing at a high level, and is constantly starting for the best side in the Top 14 (in the last 2 years). I'd say he's an absolute lock at fullback, but that just looks really confusing considering positional terminology...
Mike Brown is very good for England though, but surely there's enough room for Delon on the England team, he's athletic, fast and on form enough, and I'm sure he could give England quality minutes at very least on the bench, as a winger or smt...

Wilko still is very good, but bringing him back would be ridiculous, in view of a home RWC that needs young talent to be ready for the future...

And Andrew *Sheridan* isn't a world class prop anymore, as impressively strong as he once was. I think all that mileage on him as made him a little less Hercules-like. I've seen him powerless against Nicolas Mas some months ago for e.g., England need to keep and work on their young pops...while it's true they've lost their scummaging reputation with this new generation. They're still good though, no doubt.

 

[psychic duck]

Anyone else feeling the Pumas scrum is being a tad overplayed this match?

Their first choice tighthead is injured and the replacement is the same player who was going back at a rate of knots against England last June. Granted there are new rules now which have benefited the Pumas and he has now better front rowers around him and Albacete is a beast of a scrummaging lock, but still I wouldn't be totally fearing a scrum with a tighthead that the same England props demolished relatively recently.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I couldn't disagree.
Although we did demolish them with our strongest scrummaging lock too.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Have England actually had a period yet where the scrum we have put out has been the best England can produce? It seems every time we have someone missing due to injury. Would be nice to see what a fully fit first choice England scrum can do.

 

[Aristodemus]

Do we even know what our first choice is though?

 

[Crapspray]

Mike Brown is very good for England though, but surely there's enough room for Delon on the England team, he's athletic, fast and on form enough, and I'm sure he could give England quality minutes at very least on the bench, as a winger or smt...

The problem with Delon Armitage is that he's an arse. As shown by his celebration in the Heineken Cup final and subsequent twitter spat. Lancaster made it clear he didn't want players who were destructive to his team ethos (e.g. Care being dropped for drinking offences). While he's made a few notable (some would say egregious) exceptions with things like Hartley's discipline, Armitage would be a bridge too far even for Lancaster.

Not to mention the policy of only selecting players who play in England. Both brothers have been penciled into England plans by pundits and fans, but they've chosen to play in France. Until they choose otherwise it doesn't matter how well they play.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The problem with Delon Armitage is that he's an arse. As shown by his celebration in the Heineken Cup final

*cough George north cough*

I agree though. D. Armitage is very very good, but a right div.


I think the last time we had a fully fit and on form first choice pack was against NZ last year.

 

[Peat]

Do we even know what our first choice is though?

To date it has been Corbisiero, Youngs, Cole. That might not be the strongest scrummaging front row but it is clearly our first choice front row although that might be about to change. We have only been able to see it in action for very brief periods though.

As for the Armitages - if they want to play for England, they need to be in England. They know this, and we can assume it doesn't bother them too much since they've stayed there. Steflon looks like coming home (maybe), Delon not so much. That's cool. They are both excellent technicians and athletes but that is not unusual. The top 4 inches - desire, coherence as a team - you cannot do without that. They need to prove they have that. I don't really care what Delon does as a result. Steflon would interest me.

Guy Armitage also interests me. He's back at London Irish where he got 5 tries in 13 games for a not particularly good side. He's injured at the moment, but there's something there. He's huge, huge as in small second row huge, he's got a fair bit of pace and agility. If he can keep scoring tries when fit again, I think he could be a figure of interest to England.

 

[Big Ewis]

The problem with Delon Armitage is that he's an arse. As shown by his celebration in the Heineken Cup final and subsequent twitter spat. Lancaster made it clear he didn't want players who were destructive to his team ethos (e.g. Care being dropped for drinking offences). While he's made a few notable (some would say egregious) exceptions with things like Hartley's discipline, Armitage would be a bridge too far even for Lancaster.

Not to mention the policy of only selecting players who play in England. Both brothers have been penciled into England plans by pundits and fans, but they've chosen to play in France. Until they choose otherwise it doesn't matter how well they play.

well again, it's not like England are starving for those anyways. But had England just had Goode as its best choice for e.g. at FB, I'd make a strong argument England ought to pick Delon Armittage regardless, unless he's really as horrible as some say, which is exaggerated surely.
Oh, and sorry but we've been talking about Armittage and his woeful conduct for too long by now, totally deserves a little Cartman far right melody, sorry:

 

[Aristodemus]

Yeah Peat I agree that seems to be what Lancaster views as first choice, but myself I would have Hartley as the hooker. Youngs throwing, scrummaging and hooking are all weak.

Yoe, just because Goode is **** doesn't mean Armitage should be in the XV, at least Foden and Brown are better players and there are a few other guys (not Goode) who could be deemed to be.

 

[Peat]

Youngs' hooking has been overly criticised, largely imo because of one Brian Moore article which got it wrong, and so too has been his scrummaging. I don't think they're fantastic but I don't agree they're weak. More importantly, he offers something around the field, which Hartley doesn't. Hartley's pretty mediocre in the scum too if you ask me. I'm not particularly convinced by either when we come down to it.

 

[j'nuh]

Perhaps Lancaster's problem isn't his selections, but that he has had too much faith in selection advice given by his assistants.

Because from my POV, the forward selections are generally forward thinking, deadwood is mostly cut as soon as it comes, and selections react better to form (eg, Binny going ahead of Morgan on the basis of club form). On the other hand, changes in the back line are slow and almost certainly don't react to form. It has seemed in the past that two totally different selection strategies have existed with England - one for forwards, one for backs - and imo probably points to the input that the assistants have in selections.

Recently there seems to have been a change in selection strategy in the backs though. New players are being given a go. The eye opener for me was Dickson ahead of Youngs. That was a shock, to see a Lions tourist lose his place without having a chance to retain it. But guys like Yarde being given a go when such a change is unforced and Wade would have been given a go this weekend if not for injury and Goode relegated to third-choice fullback (and possibly fighting for his place come Jan?) and Watson training with the squad...

I think a group of things happened for the changes to come about:
1. England's loss to Wales and in general the missed opportunities throughout the tournament
2. Lancaster's opportunity to see another back line in action in the summer
3. England providing so little to the Lions back line maybe hammering home the limitations of our back line

But who knows? Maybe this is a temporary thing and we'll have Barritt, Strettle, Ashton and Goode in during the 6N.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Attwood scored the decider vs Sale tonight.
Furthers my annoyance of his England exclusion

 

[Aspry]

Do you guys think one of the two teams will be using their away kits for this match?

I can't decide wich one sucks less. I don't now if England released a new away kit recently but the purple/marroon they had was awful... and the one from Argentina was pretty bad too.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Think Lancaster has said England won't be using their change kit this test series (though it's the one game we actually could/should, as in Rugby it's usually the home side that change shirts).
Also I love our change kit.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Lancaster doesn't want use to use the change kit at all.

 

[Draggs]

Think Lancaster has said England won't be using their change kit this test series (though it's the one game we actually could/should, as in Rugby it's usually the home side that change shirts).
Also I love our change kit.

Remove the rose and O2 and I'd buy one. Best kit I've seen in ages. Stick three feathers on it, it's far better than what we have now.

 

[erfan69]

Hi, new member here, first post.

I live in Argentina, and thoroughly enjoyed the 2 tests over here in June.

No doubt it's a tougher game tomorrow though.

I shall be glued to my dodgy internet connection in any case.

We have real strength in depth though, in the forwards at least, so England by 10.

 

[Jaguares]

Remove the rose and O2 and I'd buy one. Best kit I've seen in ages. Stick three feathers on it, it's far better than what we have now.

I like the new WRU kit, I have the last home kit (RWC 2011) and the last away kit (blue with Admiral).

Cheers