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[EOYT] England vs. Argentina 09/11/13

Think Lancaster has said England won't be using their change kit this test series (though it's the one game we actually could/should, as in Rugby it's usually the home side that change shirts).
Also I love our change kit.
I dont know what the hell to think when it comes to the away shirts. I mean, in New Zealand at the RWC, either us or France had to wear away strips based on a coin toss I believe. We were just lucky France had enough respect to wear theres by choice in the final..
Then this year in our three test series, both teams wore their main strip. And tommorrow we are wearing a white strip..???
 
I dont know what the hell to think when it comes to the away shirts. I mean, in New Zealand at the RWC, either us or France had to wear away strips based on a coin toss I believe. We were just lucky France had enough respect to wear theres by choice in the final..
Then this year in our three test series, both teams wore their main strip. And tommorrow we are wearing a white strip..???
Money talks, I guess.

I usually don't mind us wearing our change kit during the November tests, as I usually really like it (even liked the purple and gold monstrosity last season :lol: ).
 
No, please god no.

If we take a quick look at the Toulon squad's English component I don't see anyone worth a recall.

Jonny Wilkinson: Obviously a legend of the English game etc etc. Admittedly has been in fine form in recent years, since the 2011 World Cup at least, and on a pure skill and form basis was good enough to make the Lions. However he is in his last season of professional rugby and one has to ask if he would do anything more in the England environment than be a much much much better version of Farrell. He strengths are, and always have been, his tactical kicking, goal kicking and defensive play and even though he has become a more rounded player through his career has always been most effective with a top quality 12 (Greenwood or Giteau) outside him to do the attacking. No recall.

Andrew Sheradin: Still a top quality loosie and young enough by prop standards to make it to 2015 (just). Stupidly powerful and experienced, arguably one of the best props in Europe although I am not sure how he is doing under the new laws. IMO the only one of Toulon's English players who could sensibly be recalled, except that we have one of the world's best loose heads playing for us now and two younger, up and coming talents to deputise.

Simon Shaw
: Was a world class lock, the last real enforcer England have had and if he hadn't existed in the shadow of Johno for a good chunk of his early career would probably have 100 caps. He is, however, fourty years old and almost certainly in his last professional season.

Delon Armitage:Talented but lacking anything between the ears. A bit of a thug really and when we have a plethora of full backs to chose from anyway there is no need for him to come back and trouble us all.

Steffon Armitage: A lot of people got very angry he wasn't recalled for the South Africa tour, conveniently ignoring the fact he was almost certain to miss the start of it. I've never been convinced he is as good as people say or as fit as people say. Interestingly he is apparently considering a return to the premiership when his contract expires. Could potentially play for England again but I don't think he is special enough for us to pull him back from France.

The other Armitages: I think there are two other brothers, Guy and another younger one who were both at Toulon. I think Guy may be back at Irish permanently now, having been loaned their before, but I am unsure. Either way, not England standard.


None of these players are either essential for England or play in a position we don't already have good, Premiership based options for. If there was an excellent English scum half playing at Toulon that might be different, but there isn't. There is also the wider point that players in the Top 14 have a stupidly bust schedule. The Reunion Rugby Show this week had a piece on the France/All Blacks game where it was rightly pointed out that the French players, owing to the gruelling match schedule in the Top 14, are arriving in camp late, already tired and in many cases injured. Do we want to be flying players in from this kind of environment, especially when Top 14 clubs don't have an obligation to release players as early as Premiership clubs do.

Meanwhile there is a host of talented players, a lot of them young, such as Daly, Watson, JJ, Eastmond, May, Wade, Tait, in the backs alone that we should be exploring. As I've said before, it amazes me that some of these guys aren't being given the recognition for their excellent Premiership form and in some cases, very good showing on the Argentina tour. I know injuries have played a part but can it really be true that with Yarde carrying an injury Lancaster's response was to have Ben Foden run as a winger in training and not call on May or even Watson, who was already in camp to gain experience of the environment? According to the papers yesterday that is exactly what he did.

Rant over.

You do speak your opinion and you back it up with absolute sense, so I respect your view entirely. However, I think differently.

Jonny Wilkinson - Yes, an English legend obviously. I understand what you mean when you say he needs a creative inside centre to be most effective but then again what fly half doesn't? You said he is a much, much better version of Farrell, which is absolutley correct in my view. We're going to get Farrell anyway, given the choice I would choose to have the better Farrell for the world cup. Hypothetically, if he were to come back with the goal of one last shot at the world cup I could easily see him extending his career a couple of seasons but - as he mentioned in his autobiography - he felt other players could not speak up to him because of the 'aura' that surrounds THE jonny wilkinson, that he felt players were putting him above them rather than being ingrained into the team as he was with other mighty players like Johnson, Dallaglio etc in years gone by.

Andrew Sheridan - I haven't seen much of him this season but I was a bit of a fan of 'Big Ted' when he was involved in the England set up. Had a great first season with Toulon and could (hypothetically of course) be around to do the business for one last world cup. Were it not for a ridiculous series of injuries his cap count would be so much higher than it is. First choice loosehead since his international debut until he moved to Toulon. But this is less of a problem area, Corbiserio is turning into a world class loosie as you say and I'd have him starting. But Sheridan coming off the bench in the 60th minute against a do-or-die pool match against Australia is far more frightening than Joe Marler taking to the field in my opinion.

Simon Shaw - Another English legend in my book, an enforcer as you say, although I never really saw any malice with Shaw as I did/do with the likes of Botha. Often saw him play with a smile on his face. I was gutted he wasn't a starting choice for the RWC 2011 because to me it was fairly obvious that he was the standout lock of the lot. He was old even then, but his passion for England just shamed the team. In the warm up match vs Wales his restart, scrum and tight work was still world class, and the game he started vs Romania he was the standout forward on the pitch. I havent seen much of him lately but I'd still consider him for the next lions tour of South Africa. 'Simon Shaw: The revenge - this time, it's personal'.

Armitage Brothers - Delon and Steffon - I'd definatley have them both in the EPS - form has to be merited. Whether they start or not is another matter. Delon would have to compete with Foden and Brown, the latter of which has been player incredibly well and the former of which has always put in good performances for England. I get what you say about Delon being a knob, I agree. He showed very little respect to Cardiff in the Heineken Cup and this ultimatley contributed to the win that they scraped.

Obviously this is all hypothetical, but its an interesting debating point. Had this RFU not implemented the overseas rule then I wouldn't bet against any of these not being in the squad with maybe the exception of Shaw because he's ancient and Lancaster clearly set out to remove the older players when he took charge.
 
JW has not played anywhere near his best this season and is now no longer guaranteed first choice at 10 for Toulon in his last season............Shaw, to the best of my knowldege, has retired.....Delon Armitage offers precisely nothing that Foden, Brown and Goode can offer (and his temperament is really no different to Brown's) so no need for him....Steffon is not a first choice and talk of his coming back to England is pure speculation and one wonders whether his agent is really pushing for a new contract with Toulon. for him...Sheridan may be a short term filler to cover injuries but cannot see him lasting as a full time international prop through to RWC!

I agree with Patchey that none of themw would be called up were the rules changed back to include those playing verseas!
 
Pumas to draw first blood soon, as always, and ultimately lose the match.
 
England 10 - Argentina 3, try by Launchbury (maul and try)
 
wow, England really really should have put this one down......
 
Twelvetreeeeeeeeees! What a run!

Saves our blushes after Ashton makes a right tw** of himself before.
 
Thoughts from the first 20 minutes

Farrell is playing a lot flatter and doing better with it. Good.
Lee Dickson is still not completely persuasive.
Twelvetrees was a wee bit greedy there for his try.
Its mildly disappointing that Ashton can't finish a 1-on-1
Mike Brown looks a really classy act
 
Great try. Really well worked. Twelvetrees gave himself a lot to do, but finished it well.
 
To be fair the last ditch tackle on Ashton was a hard one to pull off.
 
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