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[EOYT] England vs. Argentina 09/11/13

To be honest, England could have the greatest coach in the world, but the current generation of English players isn't talented to win a World Cup. Out of the big four in northern hemisphere rugby they probably have the fewest genuine top class players (not that I do not think they are the worst side per say.) I can understand selection grievances, but I don't think another coach would make a whole host of difference.
 
Really?
I'd say (and this isn't having a pop because you're irish) that that was hands down Ireland.
 
Sean O'Brien would probably play in any side in the world somewhere in the back three. Paul O'Connell would start for anyone. I don't know of (m)any English players who I could say the same about. A fit Tuilagi I'm not having a go here, or saying my team is better than yours (because based on recent form that's a rather laughable assertion) but it's just that when Ireland face England there are few enough genuine danger men who catch the eye in the way that George North or Morgan Parra would.
 
That's what we're not happy about... we do potentially have 2-3 of those sorts of players, but they continue to not be picked in favour of people like Ashton.
 
The only English players I'd take over our guys is Tom Youngs and maybe Dan Coles, that's my honest opinion. But then again I think we've had better rugby players than any of the northern hemisphere sides for the past few years, just cursed with an inept coach who didn't know how to win under the new laws.
 
Fantastic. Read what I said again.
You probably would have a seen a couple more guys who impressed you if they had been picked.
...If Piutau was English he wouldn't have been picked to play yet.
 
A bunch of English stars are at Toulon. If I was coach, i wouldn't rule out overseas players.
 
To be honest, England could have the greatest coach in the world, but the current generation of English players isn't talented to win a World Cup. Out of the big four in northern hemisphere rugby they probably have the fewest genuine top class players (not that I do not think they are the worst side per say.) I can understand selection grievances, but I don't think another coach would make a whole host of difference.
The reason is that this squad is too young to have established stars. Within 2 years, I expect a few to materialise. But if you compare the ages of the England and Ireland squad, for example, you'll see that Ireland is full of players that have an already-established legacy, whereas England is full of players waiting to establish one. The Ireland squad has 18 players aged 29 and above. Compare to England's 2 (will rise to 11 within two years).

I know that you can have stars younger than 29, but my point is that you'd expect the number of stars in a squad to increase as the squad generally ages. I have high hopes that guys not seen as stars now, will be seen as such in a couple of years.

By contrast, Ireland, Wales, even NZ, has to worry about whether some of their players will start to lose form or fitness due to being too old. I don't think England has the same worry about that with any player from now to the WC.
 
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Sean O'Brien would probably play in any side in the world somewhere in the back three. Paul O'Connell would start for anyone. I don't know of (m)any English players who I could say the same about. A fit Tuilagi I'm not having a go here, or saying my team is better than yours (because based on recent form that's a rather laughable assertion) but it's just that when Ireland face England there are few enough genuine danger men who catch the eye in the way that George North or Morgan Parra would.

I agree with what Feicarsinn is saying. I don't know if many remember this but last 6N I was having talks with English posters about the whole "talent VS skill" semantics.
I think England have mostly strong players at each position, and a fine bench, but really not too many very good players. Which is more credit to them, it means they play better as a team.
France have been the exact opposite. World class scrum, world class no. 8, world class centers etc...and a Wooden Spoon.

As of now, what I can say about England is that they have developed certain aspects well like the scrum, penalty-kicking and territorial kicking, can put up strong waves of clinical forward ruck work. But their game is very one-dimensional, too conservative, and ultimately limited. What they do is consistent enough to win most games really, heck they almost actually won their first Grand Slam since the 2003 glory days back in March not counting on Wales going ape-shyt.
But it just won't cut it for a RWC, even at home. Unless they get a similar path to the final as in 2007: that is a mediocre pool stage, a lackluster win against a side like Australia in the 1/4, and then meet France in the semis who'll have transcended to beat a ***an in an epic battle for the ages, only to lose narrowly against England which as always will manage to impose its rhythm on the game and take it by like 5.
But can England win a RWC, i.e. go perfect throughout the entire course ? Not with this, no. They'll have to improve substantially imo.

Anyways: Vamos Pumas ! At least score a nice try in this or smt !...
 
I would agree this team isn't going to win a World Cup under anyone. It is too inexperienced and too lacking in special players. But part of that is two years of development under Lancaster. He has shaped a team and the result is one of the most ponderous instruments in World Rugby. We are like a murderer who has decided to arm himself with a really heavy pillow. We smother teams and we beat them because they cannot beat us when they are being smothered - but the moment we come up against a genuinely strong team that doesn't work and we're left fighting someone with a pillow. Murdering someone by hitting them with a pillow is more believable than our backline winning the World Cup. Feic cites the lack of special players - the guy has ignored a crop of young fliers as good as anywhere in favour of Brown/Ashton/Strettle/Foden, in the process mainly robbing our two best full-backs of gametime there. The situation is at least partially of his own making.

He does an awful lot of things well. The resilience of this team is astounding. But as long as he runs an attack this poor he will be questioned and rightly so. Results are not everything. I'll tell you what, he's done less than Johnson but somehow received less skepticism so far, which is something.

The only English players I'd take over our guys is Tom Youngs and maybe Dan Coles, that's my honest opinion. But then again I think we've had better rugby players than any of the northern hemisphere sides for the past few years, just cursed with an inept coach who didn't know how to win under the new laws.

Dan Cole (note spelling please, to be pedantic) is so far ahead of Mike Ross its not funny and when Best can throw, the same applies to him with Tom Youngs, who breaks down far more regularly.

However, there's plenty more English guys I'd take if I had both. POC would be my first second row and virtually any English second row would be my second. O'Brien would be my openside and virtually any English flanker would be my blindside until Fez returns. I don't think I'd take Heaslip, but its hard to say because of Kidney-form. And I'd have a hard time picking between Corbs and Healy.

Backline would be heavily Irish dominated though largely because the best English backs don't have the experience to challenge them. Kidney's conservatism was derided heavily, but compare Gilroy and Zebo vs Wade and Yarde for international chances.

*By virtually any English player, I mean virtually any in the EPS.
 
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The reason is that this squad is too young to have established stars. Within 2 years, I expect a few to materialise. But if you compare the ages of the England and Ireland squad, for example, you'll see that Ireland is full of players that have an already-established legacy, whereas England is full of players waiting to establish one. The Ireland squad has 18 players aged 29 and above. Compare to England's 2 (will rise to 11 within two years).

I know that you can have stars younger than 29, but my point is that you'd expect the number of stars in a squad to increase as the squad generally ages. I have high hopes that guys not seen as stars now, will be seen as such in a couple of years.

By contrast, Ireland, Wales, even NZ, has to worry about whether some of their players will start to lose form or fitness due to being too old. I don't think England has the same worry about that with any player from now to the WC.

But that's kinda the point. None of this generation of players (those who should be in their prime come 2015) look like world beaters. Great cases can be made for Tuilagi, Wade, and perhaps a few other nippers here and there, but there aren't many screaming to be picked way above anyone else. He can't just dump a bunch of rookies in and hope for the best, and it's not his job to develop the players for England, but rather to put in place a team to win the next game. If the guys aren't ready it isn't his fault imo.
 
The only English players I'd take over our guys is Tom Youngs and maybe Dan Coles, that's my honest opinion. But then again I think we've had better rugby players than any of the northern hemisphere sides for the past few years, just cursed with an inept coach who didn't know how to win under the new laws.

dear lord there's no hope for you.
 
Eh, actually nevermind. I don't really want to have this argument. I don't know enough about the crop of English players playing in the Premiership to comment. I'm sure it would be nice to have the likes of Freddie Burns, Charlier Sharples and Christian Wade all in the back line for England, but one would question whether they're ready. Either way, not today TRF, not today.
 
I'll ave you dun in mate.
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It's very hard to resist weighing in on this thread :D

I think the thing to remember about 'stars' is that they're not born, they're 'made' at international level by being tested in big games.

Think of it this way; nobody, was massively talking up Wales prior to that world cup pool game against South Africa. Before Lydiate and Warburton got capped for Wales, Wales were having a bit of a crisis in a couple of positions and Warbs and Lydiate were quite tentatively suggested as a possible solution - Lydiate for Jones, Warburton for Williams, and I remember when Faletau was a complete unknown as regards stepping up to the level. He was just a possible solution to Andy Powell, Jonathan Thomas and Ryan Jones underwhelming at 8.
All three players have turned out to be top internationals; but the danger is that in hindsight you want to look back and say they were always stars or always going to be stars.

This is exactly why I think there's danger of missing the point on this thread when saying England don't have enough of those players. Guys who are untested over a series of top international test matches such as Matt Kvesic, show as much potential as Warburton for example did at the equivalent age/experience. I would say the same for guys like Billy Vunipola, David Attwood - whilst to me Ben Morgan could be world class - shame injuries have held him back. Billy Twelvetrees, Christian Wade, Jonny May, Jonathan Joseph, Eastmond, Freddie Burns, in my opinion have bags of potential - they just need to be given enough chances. Up front, I believe Joe Launchbury and Alex Corbisiero are half-way to being stars, whilst the like's of Tom Youngs and Chris Robshaw continue to be vastly underrated. Not every one of these players will make it as one of the players being talked about above - but some imo will and some already are.

Just my 2 cents..
 
A bunch of English stars are at Toulon. If I was coach, i wouldn't rule out overseas players.

No, please god no.

If we take a quick look at the Toulon squad's English component I don't see anyone worth a recall.

Jonny Wilkinson: Obviously a legend of the English game etc etc. Admittedly has been in fine form in recent years, since the 2011 World Cup at least, and on a pure skill and form basis was good enough to make the Lions. However he is in his last season of professional rugby and one has to ask if he would do anything more in the England environment than be a much much much better version of Farrell. He strengths are, and always have been, his tactical kicking, goal kicking and defensive play and even though he has become a more rounded player through his career has always been most effective with a top quality 12 (Greenwood or Giteau) outside him to do the attacking. No recall.

Andrew Sheradin: Still a top quality loosie and young enough by prop standards to make it to 2015 (just). Stupidly powerful and experienced, arguably one of the best props in Europe although I am not sure how he is doing under the new laws. IMO the only one of Toulon's English players who could sensibly be recalled, except that we have one of the world's best loose heads playing for us now and two younger, up and coming talents to deputise.

Simon Shaw
: Was a world class lock, the last real enforcer England have had and if he hadn't existed in the shadow of Johno for a good chunk of his early career would probably have 100 caps. He is, however, fourty years old and almost certainly in his last professional season.

Delon Armitage:Talented but lacking anything between the ears. A bit of a thug really and when we have a plethora of full backs to chose from anyway there is no need for him to come back and trouble us all.

Steffon Armitage: A lot of people got very angry he wasn't recalled for the South Africa tour, conveniently ignoring the fact he was almost certain to miss the start of it. I've never been convinced he is as good as people say or as fit as people say. Interestingly he is apparently considering a return to the premiership when his contract expires. Could potentially play for England again but I don't think he is special enough for us to pull him back from France.

The other Armitages: I think there are two other brothers, Guy and another younger one who were both at Toulon. I think Guy may be back at Irish permanently now, having been loaned their before, but I am unsure. Either way, not England standard.


None of these players are either essential for England or play in a position we don't already have good, Premiership based options for. If there was an excellent English scum half playing at Toulon that might be different, but there isn't. There is also the wider point that players in the Top 14 have a stupidly bust schedule. The Reunion Rugby Show this week had a piece on the France/All Blacks game where it was rightly pointed out that the French players, owing to the gruelling match schedule in the Top 14, are arriving in camp late, already tired and in many cases injured. Do we want to be flying players in from this kind of environment, especially when Top 14 clubs don't have an obligation to release players as early as Premiership clubs do.

Meanwhile there is a host of talented players, a lot of them young, such as Daly, Watson, JJ, Eastmond, May, Wade, Tait, in the backs alone that we should be exploring. As I've said before, it amazes me that some of these guys aren't being given the recognition for their excellent Premiership form and in some cases, very good showing on the Argentina tour. I know injuries have played a part but can it really be true that with Yarde carrying an injury Lancaster's response was to have Ben Foden run as a winger in training and not call on May or even Watson, who was already in camp to gain experience of the environment? According to the papers yesterday that is exactly what he did.

Rant over.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Team news update. Care replaces Youngs on the bench after Youngs failed a late fitness test: <a href="http://t.co/rIFWqmUdnB">http://t.co/rIFWqmUdnB</a> <a href="http://t.co/kBVgjrIAY0">pic.twitter.com/kBVgjrIAY0</a></p>&mdash; Official RFU (@Official_RFU) <a href="https://twitter.com/Official_RFU/statuses/398792142992445440">November 8, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
I think we should be critical of Lancaster myself, his selection in the backs has been woeful at times. It seemed expectations went down when he took over, it was lauded as a fantastic performance to finish 2nd in the 6N despite being reigning champions. That said, he did bring in a vast amount of changes that were needed but some were not. Farrell is obviously his man at 10, I don't like it but fine, the Barritt at IC and Goode fullback is ridiculous when you look at what we have.
As for how much talent England have I think some of you guys seriously underestimate the pool of players we have. I think we could name three teams (if everyone was fit) who could compete for the 6N ***le and two years down the line although I don't think we have the potential to be ranked #1 again (with this exact squad) it is possible to win the WC. That has to be the aim.
To compare England to Ireland seems silly to me.
 
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