EOYT: England v New Zealand, 01/12/2012

[Rhyer]

Manu Tuilagi is ****. Why the hype? You guys seem to go nuts over every big backline player; Mike Phillips, George North, Jamie Roberts, Alex Cuthbert, Mathieu Bastareaud, Matt Banahan and the number 12 for England who was a NZ rugby league player (forget his name). Just to name a few. When you think about it, who are the best players from these countries?

Wales - Leigh Halfpenny, your smallest back at 85kg
France - Vincent Clerc
England - England doesn't have a backline, just a bunch of over paid players pretending.
New Zealand - You think it's Nonu, Gear, Savea or SBW? Then you're ****ing crazy. Carter, Smith and even Jane are the best backline players for the All Blacks.

I can go on and on. You don't need some 110kg back player and often they're pretty **** on defence anyway because they're so one dimensional. It annoys me how everyone thinks huge is the way to go and clearly has been the problem with England lately, they think stacking up the kg's in the centre will give you a better attack. How have your results been lately?

Hell, I'm willing to bet if Robbie Fruean was playing for the English or Welsh you'd be calling him the best centre in the world. 'Oh darn, I missed 5 tackles and made 2, but that's okay! Because I can run over a flyhalf every once in a while.'

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Big Ewis]

If you take tuilagi out of the equation though we have nothing to worry sides at all and for some bizaree reason Tuilagi is never properly supported so he doesn't have a great amount of offloading abilities.

I don'tn think we miss Croft at all, i think Wood is a far better player and plays like a proper flanker rather than always hanging out in the backs. Infact with his speed Croft should be starting on the Wing!

Amen to that ! I've always prefered larger bodies on the wing. Obviously the fellow should have pace of course, but guys like Dominici/S.Williams have always been limited by their size. A guy like Lomu was stronger than any of his forwards, granted he's an exception; but even others like Habana can resist tackles and break through, he's about 180cm but very strong.

I dunno, having seen almost the full ENG AUS match, especially during the first half England looked scary (scary to me because I support the Wallabies).
But it's true that this current team could use more (a lot more) speed in execution (the backs, forwards are doing a great job), be less predictable but then again that's the criticism England will seemingly always get.
It's true that in our last 6N meeting, you guys' 3 tries were scored on individual prowess rather than team-constructed efforts...but I srs maintain England need just that little tweak to srsly break through the try line with more regularity.
Then again the SA defense was good as always - but even the Aussies played STRONG defense, and it wasn't always easy with those big England forwards crashing into the rucks who clearly had the advantage against the Aussie forwards...

Finally: yeah it seems Tuilagi plays faster than the rest of the squad at times and they don't follow adequately...but this very team can do some damage. I ain't underestimating England one bit, and ppl underestimate them a whole lot recently. I of course like France and Ireland this coming Feb., but Wales still breathes last time I checked and England are right there. It wouldn't be a surprise at all that they'd get this 6N, ppl rate them a lot lower than they should...
sure they haven't exactly shined as of late but just wait for things to pan out.

 

[profitius]

Manu Tuilagi is ****. Why the hype? You guys seem to go nuts over every big backline player; Mike Phillips, George North, Jamie Roberts, Alex Cuthbert, Mathieu Bastareaud, Matt Banahan and the number 12 for England who was a NZ rugby league player (forget his name). Just to name a few. When you think about it, who are the best players from these countries?

Wales - Leigh Halfpenny, your smallest back at 85kg
France - Vincent Clerc
England - England doesn't have a backline, just a bunch of over paid players pretending.
New Zealand - You think it's Nonu, Gear, Savea or SBW? Then you're ****ing crazy. Carter, Smith and even Jane are the best backline players for the All Blacks.

I can go on and on. You don't need some 110kg back player and often they're pretty **** on defence anyway because they're so one dimensional. It annoys me how everyone thinks huge is the way to go and clearly has been the problem with England lately, they think stacking up the kg's in the centre will give you a better attack. How have your results been lately?

Hell, I'm willing to bet if Robbie Fruean was playing for the English or Welsh you'd be calling him the best centre in the world. 'Oh darn, I missed 5 tackles and made 2, but that's okay! Because I can run over a flyhalf every once in a while.'

+1

 

[Patchey]

Manu Tuilagi is ****. Why the hype? You guys seem to go nuts over every big backline player; Mike Phillips, George North, Jamie Roberts, Alex Cuthbert, Mathieu Bastareaud, Matt Banahan and the number 12 for England who was a NZ rugby league player (forget his name). Just to name a few. When you think about it, who are the best players from these countries?

Wales - Leigh Halfpenny, your smallest back at 85kg
France - Vincent Clerc
England - England doesn't have a backline, just a bunch of over paid players pretending.
New Zealand - You think it's Nonu, Gear, Savea or SBW? Then you're ****ing crazy. Carter, Smith and even Jane are the best backline players for the All Blacks.

I can go on and on. You don't need some 110kg back player and often they're pretty **** on defence anyway because they're so one dimensional. It annoys me how everyone thinks huge is the way to go and clearly has been the problem with England lately, they think stacking up the kg's in the centre will give you a better attack. How have your results been lately?

Hell, I'm willing to bet if Robbie Fruean was playing for the English or Welsh you'd be calling him the best centre in the world. 'Oh darn, I missed 5 tackles and made 2, but that's okay! Because I can run over a flyhalf every once in a while.'

I am highly offended that you think anyone ever went crazy over Matt 'hamhands' Banahan

 

[Zed]

Manu Tuilagi is ****. Why the hype? You guys seem to go nuts over every big backline player; Mike Phillips, George North, Jamie Roberts, Alex Cuthbert, Mathieu Bastareaud, Matt Banahan and the number 12 for England who was a NZ rugby league player (forget his name). Just to name a few. When you think about it, who are the best players from these countries?

Wales - Leigh Halfpenny, your smallest back at 85kg
France - Vincent Clerc
England - England doesn't have a backline, just a bunch of over paid players pretending.
New Zealand - You think it's Nonu, Gear, Savea or SBW? Then you're ****ing crazy. Carter, Smith and even Jane are the best backline players for the All Blacks.

I can go on and on. You don't need some 110kg back player and often they're pretty **** on defence anyway because they're so one dimensional. It annoys me how everyone thinks huge is the way to go and clearly has been the problem with England lately, they think stacking up the kg's in the centre will give you a better attack. How have your results been lately?

Hell, I'm willing to bet if Robbie Fruean was playing for the English or Welsh you'd be calling him the best centre in the world. 'Oh darn, I missed 5 tackles and made 2, but that's okay! Because I can run over a flyhalf every once in a while.'

I hate teams that seem obsessed with having big backs. This obsession began when Lomu broke onto the scene. And ever since teams like England have been trying to find their Lomu. Players like Vanikolo, Banahan etc should never have appeared in an England shirt. Tuilagi, however, has much more to offer than just being big. He's quick, he steps, and he uses his power effectively. He certainly has his flaws, his passing game can be poor, his defence is sometimes ****, but he's only 21. Nonu didn't really become a decent all round player till he was 25/26. But yeah I do rate Conrad Smith as a centre and arguably he would be a more important asset to have in the England side than Nonu.

 

[Darwin]

AB's side for England named, though Woodcock, Mealamu, and Carter all have fitness tests tomorrow:

Israel Dagg, Cory Jane, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Julian Savea, Daniel Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, Liam Messam, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Keven Mealamu, Tony Woodcock.
Reserves: Dane Coles, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Luke Romano, Victor Vito, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith.

So three changes to the starting lineup that faced Wales, with Mealamu (assuming he is fit) in for Hore, Retallick in for Romano, and Carter (assuming he is fit) in for Cruden. If Carter is out Cruden will start (obviously), with both Barrett and Ellison coming onto the bench (and B Smith dropping out), as the believe they need Ellison ability to cover 12 if Carter is out.

Overall I'm very happy with the side - does anyone have any idea when we can expect to see the English starting lineup confirmed?

 

[Amobokoboko]

Looks a very good side. I hope they can get their defense up.

 

[Helmy]

That looks a lot like our top team.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Yep I think the only real positions still up for grabs at this point in time are hooker (as it always has been) and tight head lock. Messam, Savea and Smith have cemented their starting positions, at least in the short term.

 

[Gavin]

Majority of the New Zealand squad hit by diarrhea and vomiting. 1995 all over again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20537967

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Etzerbeth, wasn't a lineout caller/organiser either look at him now... i seriously don't think Parling should be in the team for lineouts only. Lawes/Launchbury are better in the loose so its upto them to "learn" and get better.

The beauty of SA is that Etzerbeth plays 4 with Kruger playing 5 and he is a lineout specialist. With your locks you need one enforcer and one lineout tactician which Lawes and Lauchberry aint.

So its got to be

4. Lauchberry/ Lawes or Garvey or someone like that
5. Parling and errr the other lineout specialist locks in england like C Day for the saints or errr i can't really think of any lol

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We should have enough to see off that bunch of chuckle heads.



Presuming theyre all running off to the crapper all game, so there's never more than 10 men on the pitch.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Patchey]

England starting XV:

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 5 caps); 14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 28 caps), 13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 16 caps), 12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 10 caps), Mike Brown (Harlequins, 10 caps); 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 11 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps); 1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 17 caps), 2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 3 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 34 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 3 caps), 5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 11 caps), 6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 12 caps), 7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 11 caps), 8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 8 caps).

Copied straight from the BBC.

 

[Standardprocedure]

Re the Manu bashing on this and on other threads, I watched the Eng/SA game again last night and it's not true that Manu doesn't look to offload. When he's in space and looks to off-load, he simply has no support with him - watch the ABs and you'll notice that 9 times out of 10, when a player breaks a line, he'll have a guy on at least one shoulder to pass to - Manu doesn't get that from his support runners.

Also, Manu is used as a battering ram - he's often given the ball in tight spaces, with no opportunity to offload; he's forced to take the hit and go to ground.

Finally, when he broke the SA line in the second half and found Ashton on his left, he offloaded perfectly. Ashton then butchered the chance because, instead of straightening up and drawing defenders, he ran diagonally across the field, then gave a hospital pass to Mike Brown who'd stayed wide. Then tub'o'lard Barnes heaps praise on Ashton and blames Brown for not cutting in - even though the overhead view showed that if Ashton had kept his line, he could have kept Brown in space and then fizzed a pass out having drawn the defenders.

Anyhow, rant over!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Re the Manu bashing on this and on other threads, I watched the Eng/SA game again last night and it's not true that Manu doesn't look to offload. When he's in space and looks to off-load, he simply has no support with him - watch the ABs and you'll notice that 9 times out of 10, when a player breaks a line, he'll have a guy on at least one shoulder to pass to - Manu doesn't get that from his support runners.

Also, Manu is used as a battering ram - he's often given the ball in tight spaces, with no opportunity to offload; he's forced to take the hit and go to ground.

Finally, when he broke the SA line in the second half and found Ashton on his left, he offloaded perfectly. Ashton then butchered the chance because, instead of straightening up and drawing defenders, he ran diagonally across the field, then gave a hospital pass to Mike Brown who'd stayed wide. Then tub'o'lard Barnes heaps praise on Ashton and blames Brown for not cutting in - even though the overhead view showed that if Ashton had kept his line, he could have kept Brown in space and then fizzed a pass out having drawn the defenders.

Anyhow, rant over!

I generally agree with you about Barnes, but in this instance he did atcually criticise Ashton for fading with the pass so that Brown couldn't run onto it.

I completely agree with you about Manu - there's just no runners. The whole system of attack is wrong, and for that I blame the coaching

 

[Standardprocedure]

Henry, fair point, but that tid-bit of criticism was buried under a bunch of praise for his running line. Brown's was a better line as he stayed in space, but because Barnsey sez otherwise, there'll be a load of people who just lap up what he says and think that Brown got it wrong. I don't know why I care so much, as up until recently I thought it was a travesty that Brown be allowed to even buy a replica England shirt, let alone be given one to play in, but I think he's played very well in the circumstances and proved to me that he's more than just a good club player.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Henry, fair point, but that tid-bit of criticism was buried under a bunch of praise for his running line. Brown's was a better line as he stayed in space, but because Barnsey sez otherwise, there'll be a load of people who just lap up what he says and think that Brown got it wrong. I don't know why I care so much, as up until recently I thought it was a travesty that Brown be allowed to even buy a replica England shirt, let alone be given one to play in, but I think he's played very well in the circumstances and proved to me that he's more than just a good club player.

Same here really about Brown - I'd sadly settled for the fact that Brown perhaps was nothing mmore than a good club player, but was pleasantly surprised by his performance against South Africa. Whereas some people on here seem to have gone completely off him on the back of that performance, which is confusing...

But yeah... if you listen to Barnes you'd literally have no clue that he's been out of form and hasn't scored for lik 10 games.

 

[mstar]

i must admit i like Eben, i think he is class. I love the name what a cool name is that sounds like a super hero lolz

Another thing is the physicality of Eben compared to Joe is so different they both played against each other in junior teams etc but Eben is just "bigger and stronger" then Joe. Joe needs to spend more time in the gym and beef up.

Parling is another skinny guy to, he could do with some gym work, which explain why he can't really shift the bigger locks who play against him. He doesn't have the natural strength that MJ had so he can't rely on that either.

Lawes is our only enforcer type of player he is muscular and strong.

Botha - just don't get me started on this please:lol:

i agree we have a lineout problem without parling in the short term.

 

[Rhyer]

England starting XV:

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 5 caps); 14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 28 caps), 13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 16 caps), 12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 10 caps), Mike Brown (Harlequins, 10 caps); 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 11 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps); 1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 17 caps), 2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 3 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 34 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 3 caps), 5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 11 caps), 6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 12 caps), 7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 11 caps), 8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 8 caps).

Copied straight from the BBC.

I hadn't realised how inexperienced England were. Their most capped player is Dan Cole on 34? Only 3 are above 20 caps.