England's Argetine Adventure

[j'nuh]

Seriously. He hasn't played for Exeter since like mid-January? I'd be pretty disappointed if Kvesic or Fraser miss out now...

 

[Peat]

Seriously. He hasn't played for Exeter since like mid-January? I'd be pretty disappointed if Kvesic or Fraser miss out now...

Even when playing he is - although an excellent Premiership player - no more than average at best at international level, undersized as a 6, underskilled as a 7, and very much the wrong age to be expecting improvement and squad building. It's not like we don't have fantastic established depth in our back row already.

The only possible point to him I can see is an experienced guy to guide the midweek team... we have one, right?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think Fraser could be out injured for a bit though...

 

[Patchey]

Fraser has had surgery hasn't he? Johnson has been displaced from the Exeter starting 15 for over half of the season and as Peat says isn't young enough to be realistically picked on the promise of future form (similar story with Phil Dowson).

According to a couple of newspapers the squad announcement is coming today.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah, it's at 2:30 according to Chris Foy (Daily Mail RU hack)

Ed Slater also "confirmed" in the latest DM article.
I think there will be a more complete list of call-ups, the journos are just cherry-picking names...

 

[Joseph14]

Weirdly, the Mail tend to get things right when it comes to England.

 

[Patchey]

Yeah, it's at 2:30 according to Chris Foy (Daily Mail RU hack)

Ed Slater also "confirmed" in the latest DM article.
I think there will be a more complete list of call-ups, the journos are just cherry-picking names...

Comes as a bit of a surprise to me if its true, but I guess we'll all have to wait another hour and a bit.

Sam Jones (the Wasps flanker) has been announced as part of the BaaBaas squad for the match against England, ruling him out of the summer touring squad I would presume.

 

[Patchey]

England summer 2013 squad

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)



Copied straight from the RFU site.


EDIT: Going to take a bit to get my head round it but Alex Goode? Seriously? He is presumably the reason Elliot Daly isn't going, placing his fat, dependable backside in the full back slot. If anyone was wondering Allen and Haskell were ruled out on medical grounds accoring to the RFU.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Very happy on the whole!

For the BaBaas game I'd have:

1. Corbisiero
2. Buchanan
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan

9. Dickson
10. Burns
11. May
12. 36
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Foden

16. Webber
17. Marler
18. Thomas
19. Slater
20. Vunipola
21. Brown
22. Eastmond
23. Yarde

I am a bit dissapointed that Wigglesworth is going ahead of Simpson, but I suppose that they want to have two 9's who first and foremost, distribute, in order to properly gauge Burns.
I am curious as to who is intended to be the back-up FH? The only players who I can see filling it are Goode and 36, although Eastmond could be seen as a potential replacement...?

Strettle, Doran-Jones and Goode are wasted picks IMO
I think Henry Thomas is going to be tea-bagged in the scrum and Callum Clarke has done nothing to show he is anywhere near good enough.

 

[smb64]

^Agree with everything

Would be very happy with the backline of

Dickson
Burns
Twelvetrees Joseph
May Foden Wade

Though I think realistically we're likely going to see Tomkins in the centre and maybe even perhaps Brown staying on the wing?

 

[Crapspray]

Overall a good squad. One that will hopefully help the development of the side come the autumn.

There are a few hangers-on, though:

Goode? As Patchey said, apparently rated above Daly. Who'd have thought that slowness, no counter-attacking threat, and poor tackling are key to the fullback position? I don't believe any of the second receiver/distribution ******** either. I don't think I've seen him do it in any game other than against Fiji.

Strettle? Good domestic form at the moment, but has always been crap in an England shirt. How many chances does he get?

Wigglesworth? Another 6/10, will never be better or worse, selection in the "Flood" mould. See: Goode

No Ford? Where is the cover at 10? Don't tell me that's why Goode is there. More "versatility" shite. (I'm not a fan of Goode)

Johnson? Really hasn't done much. Did a decent job last summer, but really could have had someone like Kruis in there, or Gibson, or Armitage... or anyone.

Tomkins? Apart from Ashton he's the most pedestrian league convert I've ever seen. Must be a Saracens thing.

 

[j'nuh]

Arranged:

Props: Corbisiero, Marler, Doran-Jones, Thomas, Wilson
Hookers: Buchanan, Paice, Webber
Locks: Launchbury, Lawes, Slater (backrow too), Attwood
Backrow: Clark, Johnson, Wood, Kvesic, Morgan, Vunipola

Half-backs: Dickson, Wigglesworth, Burns
Centers: Twelvetrees (presumably fly-half cover too), Eastmond (outside back too), Tomkins, Joseph
Outside backs: May, Wade, Yarde, Strettle, Brown, Foden, Goode

The good:

• Burns as the only fly-half gives him a very good opportunity to stake a claim.
• Finally another specialist 8 and 7! Hopefully puts an end to Wood moving around.
• Slater and Attwood are the best choices he could have gone for in the second row.
• Buchanan and Webber - better than Hartley and Youngs!
• May and Wade. Time to tear s*** up!
• Eastmond could be taken in two ways. That Lancaster has no worry about playing smaller guys, or that Lancaster is taking this as a Saxons tour.

The bad:

• Doran-Jones? Let's hope we won't need him.
• As already been said, Johnson is pointless. Especially since he won't be involved when Robshaw and Croft are around.
• Blah to Tomkins. I've not been impressed with him, but I suppose it'll be interesting to see what he can do with this backline.
• No Daly.
• Squad balance. Needs another loosehead (since Corbisiero could recur injury), fly-half, possibly scrum-half, and too many outside backs.

The ugly:

• No Care? I don't understand why he is being rested. He's not first-choice for England, and should have been allowed this tour to make that claim. Even worse is that his replacement is Wigglesworth.
• Alex. Frigging. Goode.

The huh?:

• Marland Yarde? Who actually saw this coming a few weeks ago?

I'd go with:
1. Marler
2. Buchanan
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood (c)
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Dickson
10. Burns
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Brown

16. Webber
17. Corbisiero
18. Thomas
19. Slater
20. Vunipola
21. Wigglesworth
22. Eastmond
23. Foden

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think Eastmond is probably the most interesting pick, in that he's played a full season of club rugby, yet no-one knows what position he's been selected for, it could literally be any position from 9-15.
Kvesic has actually turned out to be one of the picks I'm most excited about, will be interesting to see how he goes, and if he does well... what that does for the team!
Yarde is another that i hadn't really thought about too much, but I have a suspicion that he might thrive on this tour for some reason.

Looking at the scrum however, I am slightly worried that we might be blown off the park if Wilson and Corbisiero aren't there... Marler is not quite there yet, and PDJ and Thomas are very poor scrummagers.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Agree with ltos of what has been said except...:

ratsapprentice: Calum Clarke is an excellent player, proven so. He's really excellent over the ball as well, and when you combine that with Wood at the breakdown, we could be onto a winner.
I wouldn't start Launchbury. He's nackered, and we already know all we need about him. I don't think he'll make a match day 23 as I think Slater, Attwood and Lawes are the ones we need to be assessing.
Agree about Wigglesworth. I really really really don't rate him at all as a player.
So Daly's been kept out either by Goode or by Tomkins. Whichever way you look at it, it aint pretty.
Lastly, I'm fed up of Varndell not being given the chance- he should be there ahead of Yarde, no question.

 

[Peat]

I am a bit dissapointed that Wigglesworth is going ahead of Simpson, but I suppose that they want to have two 9's who first and foremost, distribute, in order to properly gauge Burns.
I am curious as to who is intended to be the back-up FH? The only players who I can see filling it are Goode and 36, although Eastmond could be seen as a potential replacement...?

Wigglesworth can play fly-half.

Also, I don't get the point in two 9s who are primarily distributors, when that's something Burns will never see in an England shirt again.

What's the point of Paice? Dickson and Wigglesworth over Simpson and Robson? No Daly? I've already groused about Johnson. Don't get his love in with Tompkins. Anthony Allen can be really f**ked off. I'm surprised that people are surprised by Marland Yarde, he's very solid, that's what Lancaster likes... I'm slightly meh about this, still too much chaff for my liking.

 

[Joseph14]

Agree with ltos of what has been said except...:

ratsapprentice: Calum Clarke is an excellent player, proven so. He's really excellent over the ball as well, and when you combine that with Wood at the breakdown, we could be onto a winner.
I wouldn't start Launchbury. He's nackered, and we already know all we need about him. I don't think he'll make a match day 23 as I think Slater, Attwood and Lawes are the ones we need to be assessing.
Agree about Wigglesworth. I really really really don't rate him at all as a player.
So Daly's been kept out either by Goode or by Tomkins. Whichever way you look at it, it aint pretty.
Lastly, I'm fed up of Varndell not being given the chance- he should be there ahead of Yarde, no question.

This is the final nail in Varndell's international career. Shame because he has deserved another chance for sometime now but I guess Strettle is not only using up his own chances but also all of Tom's too!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Can Wigglesworth really play FH though? Or is it in the same way that Matt Stevens "can cover both sides" , which ever way you look at it, we'll be shoe-horning someone in unless Burns plays every single minute of the tour.
I wasn't saying that picking Wigglesworth was the right call, I can understand why Lancaster would want Burns to have the ball as much as possible though... even if he won't get it that much from Care or Youngs.

I want to see what sort of dynamic Launchbury can have with Attwood/Slater in the first match, and then rest him
We need to see whether Lawes can live up to his potential more than we need to test Launchbury as an individual.

I'll defer to others on Clarke then, let's see what he can do.

I'm guessing Paice is there as first choice sub, to bring on if Webber or Buchanan's throwing goes awry, as both have been prone to hiccups.

Jonathan Joseph has a really good chance of showing that he deserves to be there, I hope he does.
Tomkins' haphazard "quantity over quality" approach to offloading will more than likely be found out at this level, and that is all he really offers, if we're honest.
If it does come off though, it would be a successful experiment...

I'm very releived that Joe Gray and George Robson haven't been picked, both very flaccid players IMO.


Something I've also just considered... If "The Woodsman" goes well as captain does that mean he has a chance of continuing in that role?

 

[michaelbolton]

Arranged:

Props: Corbisiero, Marler, Doran-Jones, Thomas, Wilson
Hookers: Buchanan, Paice, Webber
Locks: Launchbury, Lawes, Slater (backrow too), Attwood
Backrow: Clark, Johnson, Wood, Kvesic, Morgan, Vunipola

Half-backs: Dickson, Wigglesworth, Burns
Centers: Twelvetrees (presumably fly-half cover too), Eastmond (outside back too), Tomkins, Joseph
Outside backs: May, Wade, Yarde, Strettle, Brown, Foden, Goode

The good:

• Burns as the only fly-half gives him a very good opportunity to stake a claim.
• Finally another specialist 8 and 7! Hopefully puts an end to Wood moving around.
• Slater and Attwood are the best choices he could have gone for in the second row.
• Buchanan and Webber - better than Hartley and Youngs!
• May and Wade. Time to tear s*** up!
• Eastmond could be taken in two ways. That Lancaster has no worry about playing smaller guys, or that Lancaster is taking this as a Saxons tour.

The bad:

• Doran-Jones? Let's hope we won't need him.
• As already been said, Johnson is pointless. Especially since he won't be involved when Robshaw and Croft are around.
• Blah to Tomkins. I've not been impressed with him, but I suppose it'll be interesting to see what he can do with this backline.
• No Daly.
• Squad balance. Needs another loosehead (since Corbisiero could recur injury), fly-half, possibly scrum-half, and too many outside backs.

The ugly:

• No Care? I don't understand why he is being rested. He's not first-choice for England, and should have been allowed this tour to make that claim. Even worse is that his replacement is Wigglesworth.
• Alex. Frigging. Goode.

The huh?:

• Marland Yarde? Who actually saw this coming a few weeks ago?

I'd go with:
1. Marler
2. Buchanan
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood (c)
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Dickson
10. Burns
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Brown

16. Webber
17. Corbisiero
18. Thomas
19. Slater
20. Vunipola
21. Wigglesworth
22. Eastmond
23. Foden

The bold bits are the most important i feel, disagree on the hookers bit but i agree they are probably the next best. Tomkins is average but its the sarries link favouritism thing again. Alex Goode is appalling and Daly definitely should have gone.

I'd go with:
1. Corbisiero
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood (c)
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Dickson
10. Burns
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Foden

16. Paice
17. Corbisiero
18. Thomas
19. Slater
20. Vunipola
21. Wigglesworth
22. Tomkins (give him a try)
23. Yarde (Would love it to be Daly)

 

[McTallshort]

OK not bad....Lindsey instead of Paice anyone?

 

[Patchey]

Had a little think,

Forwards

Generally good. Johnson is a peculiar selection but as Fraiser and Haskell are injured there is no point getting too annoyed about it. When you consider the strength in depth of the back row (including the Lions tourists) and to a certain extent the second row that this squad shows the picture for the future is very promising. Front row is still a bit of a problem prop wise and as has already been pointed out the tighthead/loosehead balance is a bit off. Great to see Corbs back though. As for Wood captaining, Robshaw should be worried. If Wood plays and captains well then it puts Robshaw under a lot of pressure come the Autumn as many would argue his captaincy is the one thing that keeps him in the start XV. Atwood and Slater should add a new dynamic to the row that I am particulaly looking forward to seeing. As a few people have said Kvesic is the one to watch.

Backs

Bit of a mess in a way. Still fuming a little at Goode over Daly. Don't mind Tomkins, he hasn't been bad at Sarries so lets see what he can do and judge him on that (especially seeing as Allen in injured). Really positive that Wade, May and Yarde (who I personally think is a hidden gem of a player) are going and I can't complain about Strettle considering his form. If Ashton gets pickets for the Six Nations then the club mate who has outperformed him most of the season should at least get a look in. However I'm a bit concerned that Lancaster seems to have gone the other way in terms of bringing in four wingers plus Brown. Realistically only two of them are going to get meaningful game time, especially if Brown gets stuck on the wing as Goode's selections suggests he might...

Moving on to Goode the more I think about it the more I'm convinced he is there as fly-half cover. Wrigglesworth can 'play' ten but no team would risk not having a dedicated back up scrum half and besides, Goode has played ten at Sarries fairly recently. Having Goode as back up 10 at least removes the full back issue (see above) but the idea of him playing there makes me feel a little bit ill, especially considering who could have gone in his place...

Excited to see Eastmond, JJ, 36 and Burns in action.


What I think the starting 'test' XV will be:

1 Corbs
2 Webber
3 Wilson (does he really have thirty something caps?)
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Wood (c)
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Dickson
10 Burns
11 May
12 Twelvetrees
13 JJ
14 Wade
15 Foden

Which has a fairly experiences pack and a more experimental back line, lots of room for the bench to show what they have as well.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Lancaster confirms Goode as 10 cover...

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