England's Argetine Adventure

[Patchey]

I'm going to have a crack at a post-Lions squad later. For now I'm just bummed out that Gatland has nabbed our two hookers and hasn't taken Tom Wood, a player who certainly doesn't need to prove anything in an England shirt and whose selection would have let Lancaster try out a different back row combo.

 

[Crapspray]

Speaking of nabbing, is it safe to mention here that I'm glade Wade didn't get selected for Lions? Selfish, I know, but lord knows just how much I want him to steal the shirt from Ashton and nail it on his own back by the autumn. I'm sick of England's back three being shite. Especially when there's a wealth of talent at wing and a good amount at full back. I can think of about four back three combinations in the EPS/Saxons alone that are better than the dross served at the moment.

---

Wood is England's best player and, were it not for an injury last year, I'm sure would be captain.

 

[j'nuh]

FRIG FRIG FRIG FRIG FRIG.

One of the worst possible Lions announcements.

Under the confines of the EPS, we can only replace those who have been picked for Lions, right? But most of these changes are forced - we are going to need two hookers, two props, a lock (weak positions re: depth), a scrum-half and a center. Do these players have to come from the Saxons? Other than those players, we only have the depth to replace three players with players from different positions: Farrell (Burns, 12T and Flood is enough depth) and Croft (God knows we have enough 6s).

My additions:
Two hookers - Buchanan, Gray (only two in the Saxons.. if they don't need to be Saxons, then Webber for Gray?)
Two props - Knight, Mullan
Lock - Slater
Scrum-half - Simpson
Center - Daly
Two extras - May and Wade

Basically means that Goode, Ashton, Waldrom etc. are still going to Argentina.

 

[Crapspray]

I was under the impression Lancaster was going to take an EPS and Saxons combined touring party anyway, similar to what happened last year in South Africa. With a predominantly Saxons-based side playing the Barbarians and CONSUR XV. In which case the ten players can be replaced from outside the EPS and Saxons and then be eligible to tour.

Also, do players returning for injury count as changes? I thought the changes like Paice were "injury cover" and therefore Webber returning from injury wouldn't be an official change, just a reversal to the formal position. The EPS rules do seem to have plenty of loopholes/are complete garbage open to interpretation.

Even if it were the case that only ten changes could be made, Lancaster has (as far as I know) no limit to the size of touring party. So he could pick 35+ players. Effectively meaning the the top 45 players in the EPS and Saxons are playing in the summer.

Edited to add: Please God, if Goode, Ashton, and Waldrom go, I hope it's only to hold tackle bags and bring on the half-time oranges. I know it's a sad state of affairs when I think it's slightly unfair to Waldrom to include him in a list alongside Ashton and Goode.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It will be interesting to see who Lancaster's comments about leaving "known-quantities" at home, extends to.
There are certainly a lot of players who fall into that category, and a lot who we could do with seeing.
I think Lancaster is allowed to ammend the EPS at the end of the domestic season? So that would mean he can bring in a couple of people in addition to the Lions/injury cover...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tommy Taylor for England #2!

 

[Maverick1987]

Anyone know if these games are going to be on sky ?

 

[Peat]

If Wade had gone on the Lions and kicked doors down, it would have placed a lot of pressure on Lancaster to use him. From England's perspective I'd rather he was with the Lions, with my Lions hat on I can see why he didn't go and that's the main thing.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier, Peat! It would have forced his hand.
I really cannot see any reason he wouldn't be picked though, surely his form has made that impossible?

No idea whether Sky are showing this? I know ESPN did the last game England played in Argentina.
I would have thought that Sky need to show as much rugby as possible now that they don't have the premiership...

I know I can't be the only one who sees this as a tour where winning isn't actually all that important, developing new players is a must.

 

[Peat]

Well you'd like to think that, but as Lancaster seems to care more about how a winger does when the ball is in the air as opposed to in the winger's hands, I make no bets on that.

 

[psychic duck]

I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier, Peat! It would have forced his hand.
I really cannot see any reason he wouldn't be picked though, surely his form has made that impossible?

No idea whether Sky are showing this? I know ESPN did the last game England played in Argentina.
I would have thought that Sky need to show as much rugby as possible now that they don't have the premiership...

I know I can't be the only one who sees this as a tour where winning isn't actually all that important, developing new players is a must.

Actually, if England lose to the Argentina team they will face it will be a pretty embarrassing defeat. So I would say it was important. Especially as if England don't win, then it will mean that some of the development of players seriously aren't up to scratch.

 

[ratsapprentice]

How do we know what the Argentina team is going to be?

 

[michaelbolton]

My 23:

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Rob Webber
3. Dave Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Dave Attwood
6. Tom Wood
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Ben Morgan
9. Joe Simpson
10. Freddie Burns
11. Jonny May
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Christian Wade
15. Ben Foden

16. Tom Lindsay
17. Joe Marler
18. Henry Thomas
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Billy vunipola
21. Danny Care
22. George Ford
23. Elliot Daly

What I think he will pick:

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Rob Webber
3. Dave Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Courtney Lawes
6. Tom Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Ben Morgan
9. Danny Care
10. Freddie Burns/Flood
11. Wade
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Brad Barritt
14. Ashton
15. Mike Brown

16. Tom Lindsay
17. Joe Marler
18. Henry Thomas
19. Robson???
20. Matt Kvesic
21. Dickson
22. Alex Goode
23. Jonathan Joseph

 

[psychic duck]

How do we know what the Argentina team is going to be?

I explained this before, but likely it is going to have none of the Rugby Championship squad of first choice players from the French/English clubs.

 

[Crapspray]

My stab at a post-lions announcement side, that I think is a mix of likely and ideal:

1. Marler*
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood**
6. Robshaw (c)
7. Kvesic***
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Burns
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Brown

16. Gray/Buchanan****
17. Thomas
18. Corbisiero*
19. Lawes
20. Vunipola
21. Simpson
22. Flood*****
23. Daly

*Convinced by the argument to rest Corbs to prevent re-injury. Marler needs to have a good tour, he's certainly third choice now.
** If I'm honest, I forgot about Attwood first time round. Potentially rotate with Slater for the second test, depending on the latter's performance mid-week.
*** Same principle with Fraser as Attwood/Slater. I think he's more likely to start as he's been kicking around the EPS this year.
**** I'd like Lindsay to get a go, but I think it'll be a bridge too far for Lancaster.
***** Just too early for Ford, who seems to have gone backwards this year and was wobbly with the Saxons. Ford gets a go mid-week and potentially benched against the BaaBaas.

Does anyone know exactly when the touring squad is announced? I can only seem to find 'early may'. Any more information on the "established players" bit, as well? Is it double-speak for leaving out dead wood? Or does Lancaster genuinely plan on the likes of Lawes, Wood, Barritt, or even Robshaw (given recent injury) sitting out the tour; given that they're unlikely to be suddenly dropped from the EPS?

 

[j'nuh]

I feel it's time that England saw the value in a real openside. We've taken Robshaw, a quality 6, and turned him into an okay 6.5. We did the same with Wood, except turning him from a 7 into a 6.5. It's as if with England, we want our backrow to be full of jack-of-all-trades players. At one point in the 6N, we had Launchbury, Lawes, Croft, Robshaw and Wood all out at the same time!

So for me, we need to start using specialist 7s at 7: Fraser, Kvesic, Wood if he goes back to concentrating on breakdown speed.
specialist 8s at 8: Morgan, Vunipola, Waldrom if in form
other good players at 6/bench: Wood, Robshaw, Croft, Clark.

So my backrow would be Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Fraser, Kvesic, Morgan, Vunipola.

Surprised by the Lions call ups, so for me:

1. Marler
2. Buchanan
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Robshaw (c)
7. Kvesic/Fraser (I'd start Kvesic, but open it to rotation until one establishes themselves as first-choice)
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Burns
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Daly
14. Wade
15. Brown

16. Webber
17. Corbisiero
18. Knight
19. Slater
20. Wood
21. Simpson
22. Flood
23. Joseph

(Daly, May cover 15)

 

[Crapspray]

According to the Telegraph it's next Wednesday [8th of May] for the squad announcement, which leaves around two weeks until the Barbarians game. I still can't find anything about the 'established' players bit, though; I just hope it is to clear out the dead wood (*cough* Ashton *cough*).

Also, given the recent comments from Rowntree that Robshaw is pencilled in as a replacement for the Lions, does anyone else think he might not tour or lose the captaincy for the summer? Again, the whole established players thing. Or should the comments be chalked up as consolation?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I still can't find anything about the 'established' players bit, though; I just hope it is to clear out the dead wood (*cough* Ashton *cough*)

The source was Dewi Morris during one of the Amlin knock-outs where Stuart was attending, there is no reason to disbelieve it, unless Morris was straight up lying.

 

[Crapspray]

Apologies, I wasn't questioning whether it was true or not. I'd read it my self elsewhere. I was just saying I couldn't find any more clarification on just exactly what established means. I guess we'll only find out when the team is announced.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I didn't think you were questioning it, I was just pointing out that I don't think it was ever in a written article.
He did specifically mention 5-7 players though, so it's not just one or two, if correct.