England's Argetine Adventure

[ratsapprentice]

Coming at the selection of Goode from another angle...

Does his selection as a FH show that Lancaster has recognised his limitations at 15? Could this be a chance to show himself to be good enough at 10 or be dropped?

The more I think about the backline the more excited I get...

Burns, 36, Eastmond, Joseph, May, Wade and Yarde are all smart players, with pace and good footballing skill.
Attwood, Slater, Vunipola and Kvesic are too.

Bath will benefit from Eastmond and JJ playing together, if nothing else!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

No real surprises there for me - maybe Yarde.
Disappointed to see Tompkins.
Even more disappointed at no Seymour - if we're going to start using specialist 7s then use the best one in the prem. If anyone says he's too old I'm going to sh** myself and throw it at you.
I'm presuming it's because he turned down Saracens to move to Sale, and then when his contract was up at Sale he turned them down again to stay here.

 

[TommyVercetti]

Not bad. Some of my objections, most of which have already been raised.

• Squad Balance

Too many outside backs has upset the balance. Take away a couple and add another loose-head and a specialist fly-half to cover Burns.

• Props

As mentioned, I would have taken 3 props on either side, although I can't really think of many other tight-heads, Mullan maybe? I would have taken Shaun Knight too over PDJ.

• Hookers

No real issue. Paice is a good safety-net, Webber is probably the form hooker to take along, no real arguments with Buchanan although I would have preferred to see what Lindsay has to offer.

• Locks

Perfect as they are. So glad Attwood is in, hopefully he starts.

• Flankers

As others have mentioned, what is the point of Tom Johnson? I would have taken Seymour instead, only change in the back-row. A far better specialist 7, in much better form and younger. A kind of safety net to Kvesic and somebody who might be able to really push Robshaw in the short-term for the openside berth.

• Scrum-Half

Wouldn't have given Care the summer off personally. If Youngs is off with the Lions, Care should be given the chance to stake his claim here. It's making it seem like Youngs is pulling away in the race for the starting 9 spot, when he shouldn't be. One of Dickson or Simpson was fine, Wigglesworth is a bit 'meh' and I would have taken both of the previously mentioned instead, but I'm just happy one of them is going and we might see some quickball for a change.

• Fly-Half

Happy so much faith is being shown in Burns, really needs his chance. However I would have taken a specialist 10 - probably Flood - to cover, instead of 36 who hasn't ever really impressed me that much, or Goode who is quite simply just an awful footballer in general.

• Centres

36 and Eastmond are good selections here with Allen out injured. Couldn't have asked for much more. Would have taken Daly instead of Tomkins, to cover 13 and also stake his claim amongst the outside backs. Basically just to get a look at him.

• Outside Backs

Too many as mentioned, no need for 4 wingers and 3 full-backs. Would have left Goode at home, Strettle too despite his form as he's had too many chances, and taken Varndell instead, who's consistently been in better form without having the chance to prove it on the international stage, not to mention he's refined his defensive game a bit in recent years.


I'm reasonably satisified, but I've got a feeling that the 11 uncaps will whittle down and the starting XV ends up something like this:

1 Marler
2 Paice
3 Thomas

4 Launchbury
5 Slater

6 Wood
8 Morgan
7 Johnson

9 Dickson
10 Burns

12 Twelvetrees
13 Joseph

11 Strettle/Brown
15 Goode
14 Wade

Which underwhelms me. Front row would lack scrummaging strength and a new hooker to see in action, locks would lack a true tight-head, the backrow would be good bar an out-of-form, underskilled, old and out-of-favour 7 when that's the key position to target and look to change, and an outside back trio consisting of just the one exciting player, with a slow, lumbering, non-threatening and defensively weak 15 combined with another winger who's either consistently rubbish at international level or one who should be getting his chance at 15.

 

[j'nuh]

Can anyone think of a better English backrow from the last 5 years than Wood-Kvesic-Morgan? (I also love the 6.5-7-8 dynamic. I think that the modern flanker has to either develop a breakdown game or move into the second row.)

(Speaking of which, has anyone noticed how the 6 position seems to be changing? The 6.5 is starting to dominate, but there's also the "second 8". And a lot of the old school 6s seem to now move between 4 and 6, eg Slater, Kruis, Launchbury and Savage.)

And a more exciting set of outside backs than May, Wade and Brown/Foden?

 

[Peat]

If we haven't had a better back-row than Wood-Kvesic-Morgan, that's pretty depressing...

 

[j'nuh]

If we haven't had a better back-row than Wood-Kvesic-Morgan, that's pretty depressing...

Well, for the majority of it we had Croft/Wood at 6, Worsley/Haskell/Moody at 7 and Easter at 8...

Anyway, it might be a bit raw now, but could be one of the best in the world within a few years.

Although I still think there's room for Robshaw. I just wish Quins considered playing him with Wallace. Allow Wallace to take on the breakdown work, so that Robshaw can get back to being an awesome 6 (except with improved breakdown skills).

 

[Peat]

Well, for the majority of it we had Croft/Wood at 6, Worsley/Haskell/Moody at 7 and Easter at 8...

Anyway, it might be a bit raw now, but could be one of the best in the world within a few years.

Although I still think there's room for Robshaw. I just wish Quins considered playing him with Wallace. Allow Wallace to take on the breakdown work, so that Robshaw can get back to being an awesome 6 (except with improved breakdown skills).

Well, Morgan's probably better than Easter - although Morgan needs to add more strings to his bow at international level imo (can't comment on his Glaws form), Kvesic has to prove himself and will have to go some to prove he is better than a fit Lewis Moody, we did see it occasionally, while I'm with Gatty on this one - Croft over Wood thankyou very much. But compared to other guys? Kvesic has it all to prove, although I like the cut of his jib. Wood is simply a level of athleticism below most of the top blindsides in the world if you ask me.

So... eh, not sure I'm arguing with you, just saying its depressing.

As for Robshaw... he still has a place. A place until displaced. I think people have been far too harsh on his performances. But I believe that in the non-too distant future he will be forced out by the specialists, yes he could make a bid for specialist 6, but as he's the slowest option and the worst in the lineout, not sure I'm expecting him to win that, for all Lancaster clearly rates him. Robshaw is unfortunate enough to be an international standard player who's very difficult to fit into standard back-rows.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Assuming that it's going to be a Sarries/Tigers final:

• The SR will be a combination of Launchbury, Lawes and Attwood.
• We will have only one set of half backs, with none on the bench.
• Our centers will most likely be 36 and JJ with Eastmond on the bench.
• Our wingers will be two of May, Wade or Yarde.
• Our FB will be one of Brown or Foden.

If it's a Saints/Quins final:

• Corbs will be our only LH.
• Slater or Attwood will start.
• Johnson and Kvesic would be our only flankers.
• Wigglesworth would be our only SH.

I am still overwhelmingly worried about the scrum... our second choice props are going to get ****ing mullered.

 

[michaelbolton]

Assuming that it's going to be a Sarries/Tigers final:

• The SR will be a combination of Launchbury, Lawes and Attwood.
• We will have only one set of half backs, with none on the bench.
• Our centers will most likely be 36 and JJ with Eastmond on the bench.
• Our wingers will be two of May, Wade or Yarde.
• Our FB will be one of Brown or Foden.

If it's a Saints/Quins final:

• Corbs will be our only LH.
• Slater or Attwood will start.
• Johnson and Kvesic would be our only flankers.
• Wigglesworth would be our only SH.

Simpson at 9? Dickson? Agree we could do with another 10 but against baabaas twelvetrees could be ok.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Assuming that it's going to be a Sarries/Tigers final:

• The SR will be a combination of Launchbury, Lawes and Attwood.
• We will have only one set of half backs, with none on the bench.
• Our centers will most likely be 36 and JJ with Eastmond on the bench.
• Our wingers will be two of May, Wade or Yarde.
• Our FB will be one of Brown or Foden.

If it's a Saints/Quins final:

• Corbs will be our only LH.
• Slater or Attwood will start.
• Johnson and Kvesic would be our only flankers.
• Wigglesworth would be our only SH.

I am still overwhelmingly worried about the scrum... our second choice props are going to get ****ing mullered.

Really? Corbisiero is the best scrummaging loosehead in England, Wilsons the 3rd best British scrummaging tighthead after Jones and Cole, and we'll have a far meatier second row than usual - or do you mean 2nd choice as in the backups to those guys?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah the second choice guys on this tour.
Corbs and to a lesser extent Wilson are easily the strongest English scrummagers.

Marler is inconsistent... but improving.
PDJ is out of his depth at international level, and Thomas is out of his depth at premiership level.

Just heard that Lancaster is going to select either Simpson or Haydn Thomas for the Barbarians game, as a replacement for Dickson or Wigglesworth.

Source: http://www.rfu.com/~/media/podcast/20130509

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Both better choices than both, imo.
Dickson gets a lot of praise for his quick delivery, but he only does that 50% of the time, the other 50% of the time he's standing looking at the ball, pointing at people, looking at the ball etc.
He remains to be the only player I've seen penalised in the prem since the start of the 5 second rule.


I think that's a little unfair on Thomas - since he's come back from his various surgery's/injury layoffs he looks a lot beefier and has been improving game on game and in the last couple of rounds he's been scrummaging to a decent standard (having Ostrikov helping him out, instead of Gaskell, has made a difference too)
Is he an international level scrummager? No.
Will he be? I've got no doubt.

I'd love to see him get some time in the Baabaas game, I reckon it'll suit him down the ground as he's a superb ball carrier.

 

[Peat]

That's the issue with Thomas though, he's not ready yet and no one's really disagreeing - all the potential in the world, but he should enter the international stage having learned how to scrummage, not learning how to scrummage.

The real issue is there are no bright ideas for who should go instead. This is the limit of our stocks, more or less.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Same could be said of Marler, though, who was a poor scrummager when first capped and hasn't markedly improved since.
I also seem to recall you saying it was the right thing to do as he could learn from Rowntree

 

[RedWhiteGreen]

How much do we know about what sort of side the Argentinians are going to be putting out? Just a bit concerned about under-estimating them. I take it these matches count towards the World Rankings - as silly as it sounds, that does matter somewhat these days with them being used for seedings.

 

[Peat]

Same could be said of Marler, though, who was a poor scrummager when first capped and hasn't markedly improved since.
I also seem to recall you saying it was the right thing to do as he could learn from Rowntree

Quite possibly. Just because there are issues doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

I don't think Marler is a poor scrummager tbh. I actually think that technically, he's ahead of his age by a lot. The issue is he's not the strongest/biggest, the rest of his tight five can't carry him not being the strongest, and he ends up using too much energy in the scrum and being very disappointing around the park.

The other issue is at loosehead we do have options in Nick Wood - who I have been calling for constantly - and Matt Mullan.

Finally, I've also changed my opinion in that if we're aiming for 2015 seriously, we shouldn't have a whole bunch of props who will be short of their peak at that point. Which means the cap a baby front rows are beginning to do my head in. But I don't really see an alternate choice when it comes to Thomas, or least not one that gets rid of that concern.

 

[brumtom]

Can someone tell me what TV network these games is televised on ?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree with Peat, re: both Marler and Thomas.

Can someone tell me what TV network these games is televised on ?

Sky are doing the Barbarians game, the rest are to be decided. I am guessing that it'll be Sky or ESPN.
ESPN/BT could do with having a bit of practice before the domestic season, but equally Sky really need to get as much English rugby as possible in order to retain their English viewers.
As long as it's going to be televised for Argentinian TV, one of those two will have it, I'm sure...

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Quite possibly. Just because there are issues doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

I don't think Marler is a poor scrummager tbh. I actually think that technically, he's ahead of his age by a lot. The issue is he's not the strongest/biggest, the rest of his tight five can't carry him not being the strongest, and he ends up using too much energy in the scrum and being very disappointing around the park.

The other issue is at loosehead we do have options in Nick Wood - who I have been calling for constantly - and Matt Mullan.

Finally, I've also changed my opinion in that if we're aiming for 2015 seriously, we shouldn't have a whole bunch of props who will be short of their peak at that point. Which means the cap a baby front rows are beginning to do my head in. But I don't really see an alternate choice when it comes to Thomas, or least not one that gets rid of that concern.

Agree about Nick Wood, though didn't he and Shaun Knight get somewhat mahandled at the weekend by the Chiefs scrum?

 

[j'nuh]

I suspect that that was Knight being mullered, and that that's because he's not really fit but being played for a lack of decent depth. (Put it this way, just a few weeks ago, we had our third-choice loosehead on the bench to cover our third-choice tighthead.) On the subject of tightheads, I think Hoani Tui qualified on residency last year. jus' saying.