England World Cup Squad

[Vieux Talonneur]

Jamie Roberts just paying tribute to the impact of Alex King and Mike Forshaw. Ire with Farrell and Catt. Edwards with Fra.

Why don't decent English coaches work with England?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Jamie Roberts just paying tribute to the impact of Alex King and Mike Forshaw. Ire with Farrell and Catt. Edwards with Fra.

Why don't decent English coaches work with England?

Cause we'd rather pay 10 times as much for 10 times less experience

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I don't think it's just that. A lot of the English coaches come through the premiership and most people on here and in the press etc. bemoan the coaches and play down their skills unless they've won back to back premiership and European ***les. We often say they constantly need to prove themselves rather than taking them on.

There is also the excuse that they don't have any international experience and therefore we don't know if they could make the step up.

Personally I'd of been happier with coaches like Baxter and co go have been through a lot of experience in the premiership, coming into the England camp rather than coaches like Wigglesworth who has less coaching experience than I have.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Many coaches with good international records coached other international sides before becoming successful. Maybe we should be happy so many coaches are succeeding abroad and see how many we can wheel back to coach us later in their careers? A problem in England is how closed we are. We have coaches who've only coached in England picking players who have only played in England. It lends itself to stagnation. We should have coaches and players who have experience from all over to broaden the talent pool. How many English players have gone to France and become worse vs those who have gone there and excelled?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

How many English players have gone to France and become worse vs those who have gone there and excelled?

I think I've said this before but it's probably much closer than you think.

Realistically you care about and are keeping an eye on the Mercers and Willises who have got better, not the George Merricks.

I can't be bothered to go and find every single Eng-France move from the past 5 years though

 

[Geordie]

I still have faith in SB.....he'll turn us in to a force again.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think I've said this before but it's probably much closer than you think.

Realistically you care about and are keeping an eye on the Mercers and Willises who have got better, not the George Merricks.

I can't be bothered to go and find every single Eng-France move from the past 5 years though

I think the point is more the positive effect of experiencing something outside your comfort zone. Whether a period outside the Prem is directly successful or not, it's still a great experience to bank and learn from - the good and the bad. Not everyone can become the world's best player like S Armitage.

While I still think Borthwick's the wrong man I do applaud him for broadening his horizons with Japan.

If all the coaches and players know is the Prem then that's all we'll see replicated in a white shirt. Even if Arundell had been unavailable for Eng, a year in France will be brilliant for his wider development. And don't discount the off field benefits of self sufficiency and curiosity which ought to feed through to his rugby too.

 

[LIONSxv]

Looking at the debate re FB and fly half. Why don't we start Arundall at FB ( his actual position) and Smith at 10

People go on about FB in that we can't trust anyone barring Steward due to the high ball. Yet he is getting skinned once or twice a game that leads to at least one try.

Their is no good been a defensive fullback if your out of position and get gassed a few times a game.Arundall might loose a high ball or two but nobody is going to beat him for pace and would add so much more in attack. Not just with pace and footwork but with his carrying into contact.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Looking at the debate re FB and fly half. Why don't we start Arundall at FB ( his actual position) and Smith at 10

People go on about FB in that we can't trust anyone barring Steward due to the high ball. Yet he is getting skinned once or twice a game that leads to at least one try.

Their is no good been a defensive fullback if your out of position and get gassed a few times a game.Arundall might loose a high ball or two but nobody is going to beat him for pace and would add so much more in attack. Not just with pace and footwork but with his carrying into contact.

Ah but does he play FB at his club though? #watsonknows

 

[Geordie]

Looking at the debate re FB and fly half. Why don't we start Arundall at FB ( his actual position) and Smith at 10

People go on about FB in that we can't trust anyone barring Steward due to the high ball. Yet he is getting skinned once or twice a game that leads to at least one try.

Their is no good been a defensive fullback if your out of position and get gassed a few times a game.Arundall might loose a high ball or two but nobody is going to beat him for pace and would add so much more in attack. Not just with pace and footwork but with his carrying into contact.

Carpenter might come in to the equation post world cup aswell....

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I still have faith in SB.....he'll turn us in to a farce again.

FTFY

 

[LIONSxv]

Ah but does he play FB at his club though? #watsonknows

Haha yes

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't think it's just that. A lot of the English coaches come through the premiership and most people on here and in the press etc. bemoan the coaches and play down their skills unless they've won back to back premiership and European ***les. We often say they constantly need to prove themselves rather than taking them on.

There is also the excuse that they don't have any international experience and therefore we don't know if they could make the step up.

Personally I'd of been happier with coaches like Baxter and co go have been through a lot of experience in the premiership, coming into the England camp rather than coaches like Wigglesworth who has less coaching experience than I have.

There has to be an element of truth in that. This is the peak of the game.

Jones himself probably went on a downward slope after 19, but look at the coaching team he had. Of course, further changes didn't help subsequent results, but:

Compare Wiesmantle's CV to Wiggles

Mitchell's to Sinfield's

Hatley's to Harrison's

Even Borthwick would probably have been a decent technical forwards coach with previous international experience in that role.

For me Baxter ruled himself out by literally knowing nothing outside Exeter. For the international game you have to have broader horizons. One thing to bring LCD through from a 14 year old, quite another to influence a 30 year old Jamie George who's already been there and done it.

 

[RedruthRFC]

For me Baxter ruled himself out by literally knowing nothing outside Exeter. For the international game you have to have broader horizons. One thing to bring LCD through from a 14 year old, quite another to influence a 30 year old Jamie George who's already been there and done it.

+1. Furthermore, a factor in Exeter's success has been excellent recruitment - bringing in players who will perform well in the structure that Exeter play. As an England coach, he would have access to any EQP he wants, but if the cupboard is bare, he wouldn't be able to just pop down to South Africa and pick up another Kirsten or Vermeulen to make his game plan work. I would also worry that Exeter's success was to a great extent built on outmuscling the opposition, which with the player pool that England has at the moment isn't something out could rely upon.

 

[Which Tyler]

For me Baxter ruled himself out by literally knowing nothing outside Exeter. For the international game you have to have broader horizons. One thing to bring LCD through from a 14 year old, quite another to influence a 30 year old Jamie George who's already been there and done it.

+1. Furthermore, a factor in Exeter's success has been excellent recruitment.

IMO He also hasn't had any particular success in coaching the absolute best out of truly excellent players.
He's brilliant at maximising limited players, but when he gets his hands on a truly outstanding player... IMO, Slade and LCD both should have done an awful lot more on the international stage - now some of that would be Eddie, but some is... their only ever coach, who got them there, but never to take that next step.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Lol these statements above only prove my point. We expect something supernatural almost from a prem coach before we will even discuss them in an England context. He's the type of coach who could go to another nation and smash it.

There's nothing in truth that means he isn't going to be a good international coach just because he has stayed at Exeter. There is also nothing to say you have to win constantly i the premiership to be a good international coach.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Lol these statements above only prove my point. We expect something supernatural almost from a prem coach before we will even discuss them in an England context. He's the type of coach who could go to another nation and smash it.

There's nothing in truth that means he isn't going to be a good international coach just because he has stayed at Exeter. There is also nothing to say you have to win constantly i the premiership to be a good international coach.

Nothing supernatural, just a different set of criteria to those that you think are important. You haven't explained why you think the concerns expressed don't matter.

 

[Which Tyler]

Of course there's nothing to say he won't be a great international coach. There's also nothing much to say that he would.
That's the point, he's got a track record at 1 club that took the best part of a decade to grow.
He's ticked one box of many.

IMO, England head coach should be one of the top jobs in rugby and should go to an experienced international head coach. It's not the place to learn your trade before taking those lessons elsewhere.
I want someone with wide experience, at club and international level, as head coach and assistant coach, with a proven track record.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Nothing supernatural, just a different set of criteria to those that you think are important. You haven't explained why you think the concerns expressed don't matter.

I don't think the concerns don't matter (and I'm not saying Baxter specifically would be a good international coach), what I'm trying to say is that we won't give him a chance because of those things were as other counties seem to. They take risks without looking for the whole package which is what we seem fixated on. Maybe with the Saxons gone we don't have that luxury to test people though, where can they earn their stripes?


@Quel Carreleur i agree but I guess I was talking more about assistant coaches, young upcoming ones like Joe Worsley for example (someone like that).

 

[Which Tyler]

Ah, okay - as assistants, I don't have any such reservations.
Take any Prem specialist or head coach that the incumbent HC thinks is the best fit - no problem.
I'd kill to have a Worsley, or an O'Gara as an England assistant coach, learning international rugby. If they take to it, they'd then have a shot at the England top job (as they've already got the club pedigree) - though even then, I'd prefer them to take on a lesser international HC role first.

On Baxter himself, I suspect that he's been too far from hands-on coaching for too long to make a good assistant coach with England, but I would not rule him out based on my suspicion.
I'd take Hepher or Hunter from Exeter with no such qualms.

If I had to lay down my ideal (mythical) career progression for an England head coach ID say:
Specialist coach at club level
Assistant coach at club level (different club, preferably overseas)
Assistant coach at international level (overseas)
Assistant coach for England
Head coach at club level
Head coach at international level (overseas)
England head coach.

Realistically, I'd want to hit as many of those as reasonably achievable with as much success as reasonably achievable.