England World Cup Squad

[Rugbyfan564]

I think Vunipola and Daly at just 30 might be kept around.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think Vunipola and Daly at just 30 might be kept around.

In terms of age yes you could definitely keep them around for a bit but due to playing ability I'd be moving them on. Perhaps a little harsh on Daly who I'm a little on the fence about but I'd definitely be getting rid of Vunipola.

 

[ncurd]

EPS reset completely every summer (so ahead of the RWC), as far as I'm aware, it also resets completely after a RWC.

SB could use that excuse ahead of the 6N, but since then, he's had the squad he wanted.

I think TBF to the guy being hamstrung for the 6 Nations kinda tied his hand behind his back for the RWC. Even if he could change it its not advisable with only a handful of warm up games to bed in the squad.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

In terms of age yes you could definitely keep them around for a bit but due to playing ability I'd be moving them on. Perhaps a little harsh on Daly who I'm a little on the fence about but I'd definitely be getting rid of Vunipola.

I feel like he will be reluctant to remove lots of players who are in his first choice 15 all at once. Daly is certainly in that category.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I feel like he will be reluctant to remove lots of players who are in his first choice 15 all at once. Daly is certainly in that category.

Yeah that's fair, I'd agree. I was talking mostly about what I would do rather than what I think Borthwick will do.

In terms of what I think Borthwick will do then yeah I think Slag and Vunipola both stay around for a bit. Also would bet that Youngs will be kept in the squad while van Poortvliet and Mitchell develop.

Edit: mistyped Daly and it somehow autocorrected to Slag. I'm not changing it.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I think Vunipola and Daly at just 30 might be kept around.

Billy Vunipola is only 30 years old?????????

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Billy Vunipola is only 30 years old?????????

Made his pro debut before he sat his A levels. Debuted for England at 20. That's why it feels like he's been around for quite some time.

Also he turns 31 in November.

 

[ncurd]

So from what I can see there are currently 13 players in the squad who are 30 or older. In terms of what I'd like to see done with these players post RWC:
- Cole (36): moved on.
- Marler (33): moved on.
- Sinckler (30): kept around for 2 years or so while we bring through Heyes.
- George (32): kept around for 2 years or so while we bring through Dan.
- Lawes (34): moved on.
- Vunipola (30): moved on.
- Youngs (34): moved on.
- Care (36): moved on.
- Ford (30): keep him around, potentially for another cycle if he's up to it.
- Farrell (32): I imagine quite a few are keen to see the back of him but honestly I'd be keeping him around for at least another year or 2. Having his leadership around the squad will be key in (hopefully) bringing through a lot of young players.
- Daly (30): moved on.
- Tuilagi (32): moved on.
- May (33): moved on.

That's 4 players retained, 9 moved on. Add in Ribbans, Willis and Marchant definitely leaving and you're left with a leaving a squad of:
LP: Genge, Rodd, + space for another (Marler)
HK: George, Dan, Walker
TP: Sinckler, Stuart, + space for another (Cole)
LK: Itoje, Chessum, Martin, + space for another (Ribbans going abroad)
FL: Curry, Ludlam, Earl, + space for 2 more (Lawes + Willis going abroad)
N8: + space for another (Vunipola)
SH: Mitchell, + space for 2 more (Youngs + Care)
FH: Farrell, Ford, Smith
IC: Lawrence, + space for another (Tuilagi)
OC: + space for another (Marchant going abroad)
WG: Arundell (assuming/hoping he may be given a season of leeway due to the LI situation), Malins, + space for 2 more (Daly + May)
FB: Steward

+ space for 3 more due to 6N squads being 36-men rather than 33. That's 15 (16 if Arundell deemed unavailable) slots to play with.

You should be able to build a pretty decent squad from there.

FH I get rid of both Ford and Farrell, we have Smith. I want a new leadership team within the squad I think its part of the problem. Prop and Hooker is acceptable as I think we have a lack of options.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

FH I get rid of both Ford and Farrell, we have Smith. I want a new leadership team within the squad I think its part of the problem. Prop and Hooker is acceptable as I think we have a lack of options.

Personally think it would be crazy to get rid of both. I do think that them having such a tight grip of the leadership group is an issue but who do we have to replace them? Sure Marcus can start but would you really be bringing in Fin Smith this early as your only reserve? Frankly I also think Ford will still be a better 10 than Fin come 2027 (although it is early to say).

I could get on board with dropping 1 of Ford or Faz (preferably Faz) but there's no way I'd be ditching both.

 

[ncurd]

Personally think it would be crazy to get rid of both. I do think that them having such a tight grip of the leadership group is an issue but who do we have to replace them? Sure Marcus can start but would you really be bringing in Fin Smith this early as your only reserve? Frankly I also think Ford will still be a better 10 than Fin come 2027 (although it is early to say).

I could get on board with dropping 1 of Ford or Faz (preferably Faz) but there's no way I'd be ditching both.

I'd point to France as an example of trusting youth.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'd point to France as an example of trusting youth.

Sure but Fin Smith is no Romain Ntamack

 

[Noonz]

Whatever happened to Charlie Atkinson? I'm not saying he's Romain Ntamack, but he seemed to have some promise.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Whatever happened to Charlie Atkinson? I'm not saying he's Romain Ntamack, but he seemed to have some promise.

He's at Tigers, likely to be their first choice until November with Pollard back with the Boks

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Sure but Fin Smith is no Romain Ntamack

Was busy earlier when I wrote this but I'll give a more detailed answer now.

France didn't trust youth purely for the sake of trusting youth; the young players who they brought through were the best players available to them. Ntamack and Jalibert were the best French 10s and so they were given the reigns regardless of being young; not because they were young. But Marcus, and certainly Fin, are not the 2 best English 10s.

France also had the sense to keep some of their older guard around, such as Atonio, Fickou and Ollivon. We shouldn't ditch players like Ford when he is performing just because he isn't the hot new thing.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Whatever happened to Charlie Atkinson? I'm not saying he's Romain Ntamack, but he seemed to have some promise.

I'll resist a jibe about him last being seen unconscious following a tackle from a fellow fly half.

What the squad looks like post RWC will be interesting and a difficult balancing act. Fra got the leeway to gut theirs and invest in youth with the aim of succeeding in this World Cup. Unless Borthwick gets head hunted to replace Jones he simply won't get that latitude. Results and performances will matter.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

FH I get rid of both Ford and Farrell, we have Smith. I want a new leadership team within the squad I think its part of the problem. Prop and Hooker is acceptable as I think we have a lack of options.

I wouldn't do wholesale changes at 10. I think of our options at 10 though, the style we would need to develop to best take advantage of it is closer to Fords natural game than Farrells. Move Farrell out, retain Ford and Smith and potentially ease Ford out towards the end of the cycle depending on how form is.

 

[LIONSxv]

We also need to re think how we select players. Maybe a committee with the head coach as the chair with the final say would be a better approach. It's pretty clear that a green SB has struggled with selection for this WC.
Glaring admissions Mercer, Underhill, No cover at 8. Picking hookers he has no faith in and anyone of about 5 out and out wingers who he decided not to pick , but picked J May who has lost 2 yards of pace and is in no form ( a guy so good that he didn't make the original squad ) .

J May was a fabulous player for England for the past 5-6 years

 

[Rugbyfan564]

We also need to re think how we select players. Maybe a committee with the head coach as the chair with the final say would be a better approach. It's pretty clear that a green SB has struggled with selection for this WC.
Glaring admissions Mercer, Underhill, No cover at 8. Picking hookers he has no faith in and anyone of about 5 out and out wingers who he decided not to pick , but picked J May who has lost 2 yards of pace and is in no form ( a guy so good that he didn't make the original squad ) .

J May was a fabulous player for England for the past 5-6 years

I think they already is a de facto committee - made up of the other coaches. Having outsiders with the head coach as the final say wouldn't work. The head coach needs either all of the say or none of it.

 

[Geordie]

.

So from what I can see there are currently 13 players in the squad who are 30 or older. In terms of what I'd like to see done with these players post RWC:
- Cole (36): moved on.
- Marler (33): moved on.
- Sinckler (30): kept around for 2 years or so while we bring through Heyes.
- George (32): kept around for 2 years or so while we bring through Dan.
- Lawes (34): moved on.
- Vunipola (30): moved on.
- Youngs (34): moved on.
- Care (36): moved on.
- Ford (30): keep him around, potentially for another cycle if he's up to it.
- Farrell (32): I imagine quite a few are keen to see the back of him but honestly I'd be keeping him around for at least another year or 2. Having his leadership around the squad will be key in (hopefully) bringing through a lot of young players.
- Daly (30): moved on.
- Tuilagi (32): moved on.
- May (33): moved on.

That's 4 players retained, 9 moved on. Add in Ribbans, Willis and Marchant definitely leaving and you're left with a leaving a squad of:
LP: Genge, Rodd, + space for another (Marler)
HK: George, Dan, Walker
TP: Sinckler, Stuart, + space for another (Cole)
LK: Itoje, Chessum, Martin, + space for another (Ribbans going abroad)
FL: Curry, Ludlam, Earl, + space for 2 more (Lawes + Willis going abroad)
N8: + space for another (Vunipola)
SH: Mitchell, + space for 2 more (Youngs + Care)
FH: Farrell, Ford, Smith
IC: Lawrence, + space for another (Tuilagi)
OC: + space for another (Marchant going abroad)
WG: Arundell (assuming/hoping he may be given a season of leeway due to the LI situation), Malins, + space for 2 more (Daly + May)
FB: Steward

+ space for 3 more due to 6N squads being 36-men rather than 33. That's 15 (16 if Arundell deemed unavailable) slots to play with.

You should be able to build a pretty decent squad from there.

Whilst i completely agree with you (I'd add Will Stuart to the list of dispatching) who do you look at for each.

I just feel many of the ones are just slightly undercooked as of yet. Ie Seb Atkinson the 12 at Gloucester. Carpenter at Sale.

its too early for Chessum Junior and the next batch of locks so do we bring back tge uninspiring Isiekwe or the lad from Saint's...who's briefly been in the 6n sqaud If I remember correctly.

Also will Quirke find form and Kelly? Who else are the 9s...Gus Warr.

This season the prem will be fascinating to look at so many players.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Marler: England won ugly in '03, why can't we?

England are using the ruthless nature of the 2003 Rugby World Cup-winning side as inspiration as they build their own charge in France 20 years on.

www.espn.com

If they can win like that go ahead. I just don't think the forwards are good enough to do it. That being said, it looks like they'll just need to pull two games out of their ass.