England World Cup Squad

[LIONSxv]

England are not playing well that much is obvious. I think many realistic fans, punters support pragmatic effective rugby. The very best teams are hugely pragmatic in that they have a great kick chase, defence and set piece
I would argue that this current England side are not pragmatic, in that to be pragmatic you also need to be effective. 75% of England current pass kick tactics result in the ball been turned over, penalised or players don't have a clue where to run or pass. This England side is ideologically driven by a game plan that stops players playing because stats tell Borthwick that kicks win matches, this much is obvious.

This stat is only true as the teams doing the kicking are usually on the front foot and have better kickers/chasers.

It is of no surprise that when England played through the phases they scored two nice tries.

SB like Eddie is trying play a kick chase game moulded from South Africa 2019 iteration, but without a dominant pack and brilliant chasers . It's a stupid game plan and will come unstuck against the first team that plays well against them

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I agree. However, on the basis of your second sentence, literally no England team has ever excited you.

A slight liberty of interpretation, but it has been a few years…..

Stupid thing is that I, and probably a majority of fans, don't actually ask for much. Commitment, a decent set piece, organisation and a bit of wit behind. Not looking for tries from the end of the earth, just competence and competitiveness. We have no divine right to win anything but given our player base - and what ought to be a wealthy union - we should always expect to be competitive.

We have been let down on those basics for far too long now.

 

[ncurd]

This England side is ideologically driven by a game plan that stops players playing because stats tell Borthwick that kicks win matches, this much is obvious.

I agree my main point of frustration if this was also EJs gameplan that got him fired. So why had Borthwick come in and stuck to the gameplan that wasn't working.

 

[Reiser99]

For me it's simple, yes you can only play what's in front of you, but if England keep playing the way they are they won't be playing in the tournament much longer

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I can deal with boring rugby that is competent and controlled. England really aren't doing that at all. It's not that they lack creativity, it's that they appear to lack any sort of direction at all other than kicking and even that seems to be done the majority of the time for no reason other than to have the opposition in possession.

Even boring sides can take advantage of mistakes, it's kinda the whole point of a boring and simple plan. England rarely even exploit these mistakes. Teams know they can leave a 4 on 1 and England will still kick.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

For me it's simple, yes you can only play what's in front of you, but if England keep playing the way they are they won't be playing in the tournament much longer

Reminds me of when the wheels started wobbling with EJ and people were saying it's fine to win ugly all the time, and half of us were saying it's a fine line between winning ugly and losing ugly, and then....yeah

 

[Reiser99]

Reminds me of when the wheels started wobbling with EJ and people were saying it's fine to win ugly all the time, and half of us were saying it's a fine line between winning ugly and losing ugly, and then....yeah

Yeah, the best teams can win ugly. No one plays their best every game. But those games are the exception, not the rule. England playing badly is the rule.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah, the best teams can win ugly. No one plays their best every game. But those games are the exception, not the rule. England playing badly is the rule.

One bad performance for a team winning is good sign. Continuous bad performances in a team regularly loosing is not something to get excited about.

I do think we are improving, incredibly slowly. But we are nowhere near a master plan. Our basic are so shocking its mucking up any good we do. I just don't know if I could stomach anything but getting rid of every player over the age of 30 and really starting this side from scratch in the 6 nations.

 

[ncurd]

One bad performance for a team winning is good sign. Continuous bad performances in a team regularly loosing is not something to get excited about.

I do think we are improving, incredibly slowly. But we are nowhere near a master plan. Our basic are so shocking its mucking up any good we do. I just don't know if I could stomach anything but getting rid of every player over the age of 30 and really starting this side from scratch in the 6 nations.

I bet our bloody stupid rules stop Borthwick from making wholesale changes like that though.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't even think our defence is all it's cracked up to be. We faced 2 sides heavily misfiring but against sides with actual attacking intent, they slice through us repeatedly (and we STILL leave our wingers out to dry after all these years).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The EPS gets a fully clean slate post rwc,
Will be interesting to see how many changes SB will actually make considering he's leaning heavy on EJs players/not rocking the boat

There's some players that will age out but I can't see him making wholesale changes considering how few changes he's made so far- this squad doesn't feel like he's being held back by the rules

 

[Becca]

You get a fully clean slate post rwc,
Hard to say how many changes SB will actually make considering he's leaning heavy on EJs players/not rocking the boat

I'd like to hope he'd make changes post RWC.

 

[ncurd]

You get a fully clean slate post rwc,
Hard to say how many changes SB will actually make considering he's leaning heavy on EJs players/not rocking the boat

I think that's real proof for me if he's up to it. I understand partially the insanity of not making the changes and trying to improve the **** game plan. But if you won't clean slate this **** after the tournament I fear for the next cycle awaiting and will just be waiting to see how long it takes the RFU to get rid of Borthwick.

 

[MarkyH]

I bet our bloody stupid rules stop Borthwick from making wholesale changes like that though.

I think after a WC the coach can make wholesale changes...

Or what @TRF_Olyy said...

 

[Geordie]

i would like to think there'll be a few changes after this world cup.

Hopefully a few injury pone lads can stay fit also.

 

[BrokenWing]

Some rule about him only allowed to make five changes?

 

[Which Tyler]

EPS reset completely every summer (so ahead of the RWC), as far as I'm aware, it also resets completely after a RWC.

SB could use that excuse ahead of the 6N, but since then, he's had the squad he wanted.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Some rule about him only allowed to make five changes?

From what I recall it's:
10 changes when the eps is first announced in a season (I think this is during the summer, so before the summer internationals)
5 changes during the season (i.e. before the autumn internationals/6n),
Complete reset after the world cup

As with everything to do with English rugby, though, it's bloody hard to find any of this actually written down and/or available for the fans to read

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I feel like rolling the dice and mixing things up is the right thing, but the problem is it doesn't give you a proof of concept if you're only trying it out against Chile. I think we'd have to be able to stick to it against Samoa too. And then, *just maybe*, if it's working, you've got something you can run with in a quarter final*.

But no point mixing it up as a one off.

* Bearing in mind that we are exceptionally looking with our possible quarter finals

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So from what I can see there are currently 13 players in the squad who are 30 or older. In terms of what I'd like to see done with these players post RWC:
- Cole (36): moved on.
- Marler (33): moved on.
- Sinckler (30): kept around for 2 years or so while we bring through Heyes.
- George (32): kept around for 2 years or so while we bring through Dan.
- Lawes (34): moved on.
- Vunipola (30): moved on.
- Youngs (34): moved on.
- Care (36): moved on.
- Ford (30): keep him around, potentially for another cycle if he's up to it.
- Farrell (32): I imagine quite a few are keen to see the back of him but honestly I'd be keeping him around for at least another year or 2. Having his leadership around the squad will be key in (hopefully) bringing through a lot of young players.
- Daly (30): moved on.
- Tuilagi (32): moved on.
- May (33): moved on.

That's 4 players retained, 9 moved on. Add in Ribbans, Willis and Marchant definitely leaving and you're left with a leaving a squad of:
LP: Genge, Rodd, + space for another (Marler)
HK: George, Dan, Walker
TP: Sinckler, Stuart, + space for another (Cole)
LK: Itoje, Chessum, Martin, + space for another (Ribbans going abroad)
FL: Curry, Ludlam, Earl, + space for 2 more (Lawes + Willis going abroad)
N8: + space for another (Vunipola)
SH: Mitchell, + space for 2 more (Youngs + Care)
FH: Farrell, Ford, Smith
IC: Lawrence, + space for another (Tuilagi)
OC: + space for another (Marchant going abroad)
WG: Arundell (assuming/hoping he may be given a season of leeway due to the LI situation), Malins, + space for 2 more (Daly + May)
FB: Steward

+ space for 3 more due to 6N squads being 36-men rather than 33. That's 15 (16 if Arundell deemed unavailable) slots to play with.

You should be able to build a pretty decent squad from there.