England World Cup Squad

[TRF_Olyy]

All on paper:

1. Controversially, if Billy is in the form he's been at Saracens this season: Billy - Borthwick obviously wants a big boy at 8 and Billy is the biggest boy we have. Also adds the bulk/tight carrying that we miss having a more hybrid 4/6 combo (if that's Itoje/Lawes). With that said: Billy is notoriously a poor trainer, and has just spent several months out of action with injury/multiple surgeries. What kind of form is he bringing to the table? What kind of conditioning is he bringing to the table?
2. Tom Willis my second choice, but no idea how he'll adapt to international rugby,
3. Dombrandt third choice - big fan of him for Quins but yet to bring that form to international level

We've four warm up games, I'd like them to get a start each, possibly each getting a bench spot too, and go from there

It's a bit awkward though cause we name our squad after the game vs Wales, I think? So one might (/probably will) get dropped after that game - so for the Wales game I think we might see
8. Billy
20. Willis
or vice versa - see where Billy's fitness is, and see how Willis steps up to the Wales game (Wales on a slump atm but a game in the MilStad is still a good test of a players metal). Dombrandt pencilled in as the incumbent.

 

[Geordie]

For me it depends if this long camp has been enough to get Dombrandt in tune with the rest of the side with regards his lines of running etc. He dropped too many balls etc and just didnt seem to have his timing right. If they can fix that...he can add a nice dimension to Englands attack...and we can get the additional heavy carrying from George Martin or Ribbans etc (that we'd lose not having Billy)

As you say Tom Willis is a bit of an unknown...only the coaches in camp will see how hes adapting. But he is a good player.

Billy had a minor knee op last week aswell didnt he?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Billy had a minor knee op last week aswell didnt he?

Think it was earlier than that, maybe second week in camp?
He's in the main squad list, not the walking wounded, so that's a positive but they're gonna have a lot of work to do on his conditioning after so long out

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Really hope Billy doesn't make it into the wales game or the final squad. I can't remember the last time I watched him when he wasn't looking lazy, walking around and wasn't even making yards in contact. He hasn't offered those massive hits or too ball carrying or great workrate in years.

Willis has to start the wales game to see if he can cut it, but if the rest of the England team are all over the shop we won't be able to tell how he did.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

All on paper:

1. Controversially, if Billy is in the form he's been at Saracens this season: Billy - Borthwick obviously wants a big boy at 8 and Billy is the biggest boy we have. Also adds the bulk/tight carrying that we miss having a more hybrid 4/6 combo (if that's Itoje/Lawes). With that said: Billy is notoriously a poor trainer, and has just spent several months out of action with injury/multiple surgeries. What kind of form is he bringing to the table? What kind of conditioning is he bringing to the table?
2. Tom Willis my second choice, but no idea how he'll adapt to international rugby,
3. Dombrandt third choice - big fan of him for Quins but yet to bring that form to international level

We've four warm up games, I'd like them to get a start each, possibly each getting a bench spot too, and go from there

It's a bit awkward though cause we name our squad after the game vs Wales, I think? So one might (/probably will) get dropped after that game - so for the Wales game I think we might see
8. Billy
20. Willis
or vice versa - see where Billy's fitness is, and see how Willis steps up to the Wales game (Wales on a slump atm but a game in the MilStad is still a good test of a players metal). Dombrandt pencilled in as the incumbent.

Thing is I'd argue Billy hasn't brought his club form to internationals for a long time and generally looks disinterested. He has been fairly consistently stopped on the gain line so his main point of difference is being nullified. I feel Dombrandt, despite his butter fingers, is closer to it just clicking than Billy is. The lines that Dombrandt ran, had he took the balls, would have sliced through defences. He keeps offering that threat but it just isn't quite paying off yet but I feel it's more likely he will stop dropping the ball than Billy will return to barrelling through defences.

1) Dombrandt
2) T Willis
3) Billy V

 

[Geordie]

Thing is I' argue Billy hasn't brought his club form to internationals for a long time and generally looks disinterested. He has been fairly consistently stopped on the gain line so his main point of difference is being nullified. I feel Dombrandt, despite his butter fingers, is closer to it just clicking than Billy is. The lines that Dombrandt ran, had he took the balls, would have sliced through defences. He keeps offering that threat but it just isn't quite paying off yet but I feel it's more likely he will stop dropping the ball than Billy will return to barrelling through defences.

1) Dombrandt
2) T Willis
3) Billy V

Thats my hopes...that all this time in camp will just tweak it and make the difference...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Whats your thoughts on the 8 spot? Billy, Dombrandt or Tom Willis...who do you choose and why.

You have flankers like Curry and maybe Ludlam and / or Earl who can cover 8 if needs be, so only 2 out of 3 go.

Although uncapped, Willis is the no brainer as he's fit and been on form in a tough league. He's probably, initially anyhow, a bench warmer but he's on the plane. Added dimension is that he and his brother know each other's games inside out - given the lack of time to build combinations maybe Borthwick might be tempted by that?

A bit reluctantly I think I probably take a fit and firing Binny over Dombrandt. A Binny not at that level doesn't make the reserve list.

Who starts the first game? Well, I've narrowed it down to Binny, Dombrandt, Willis or Ludlam.

Still annoyed for Mercer though.

Moving across the back row Earl said the squad had been surprised by Underhill's culling as he'd been training really well.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Moving across the back row Earl said the squad had been surprised by Underhill's culling as he'd been training really well.

What's the context of this? Because my initial thought is that if Earl's been asked about Underhill being dropped then he's hardly going to come out and say "well yeah he was training like ****".

 

[Geordie]

You have flankers like Curry and maybe Ludlam and / or Earl who can cover 8 if needs be, so only 2 out of 3 go.

Although uncapped, Willis is the no brainer as he's fit and been on form in a tough league. He's probably, initially anyhow, a bench warmer but he's on the plane. Added dimension is that he and his brother know each other's games inside out - given the lack of time to build combinations maybe Borthwick might be tempted by that?

A bit reluctantly I think I probably take a fit and firing Binny over Dombrandt. A Binny not at that level doesn't make the reserve list.

Who starts the first game? Well, I've narrowed it down to Binny, Dombrandt, Willis or Ludlam.

Still annoyed for Mercer though.

Moving across the back row Earl said the squad had been surprised by Underhill's culling as he'd been training really well.

As i said above, it all depends on how Dombrandt has been training. IF he plays the Wales game next week and the passes are sticking and he's hitting his lines of running etc, making line breaks and offloads as we know he can for Quins...then he starts for me. If its still not clicking by now then its Willis and Billy.

But then how fit will Billy be? And if hes not fit...its a major problem

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

-

What's the context of this? Because my initial thought is that if Earl's been asked about Underhill being dropped then he's hardly going to come out and say "well yeah he was training like ****".

That's obviously right, there's always an PR element, but equally there are ways and ways to get a message across if things hadn't been going so well. Precise quote from the Times:

Underhill's omission stunned those who remained. "That just goes to show how competitive it is" Earl said. "Sam trained brilliantly, and it was a shock to us all that he was no longer involved. That really struck home with us."

Make of that what you will, but its not on the fence 'he was going OK' language.

 

[BPM]

As i said above, it all depends on how Dombrandt has been training. IF he plays the Wales game next week and the passes are sticking and he's hitting his lines of running etc, making line breaks and offloads as we know he can for Quins...then he starts for me. If its still not clicking by now then its Willis and Billy.

But then how fit will Billy be? And if hes not fit...its a major problem

I think Willis and Billy are closer to the type of 8 Borthwick wants. There's only one game before the squad is finalised, so it seems almost certain that Willis will feature and if he does well and Billy is fit enough, I can see Dombrandt being left behind.

Alternatively, if Borthwick plays a different lineup and Dombrandt were to start alongside Care and Smith, it might give him the right set up to shine and hold off Billy.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

As i said above, it all depends on how Dombrandt has been training. IF he plays the Wales game next week and the passes are sticking and he's hitting his lines of running etc, making line breaks and offloads as we know he can for Quins...then he starts for me. If its still not clicking by now then its Willis and Billy.

But then how fit will Billy be? And if hes not fit...its a major problem

Training and a warm up match against a tier 3 country don't really tell us much TBH. Maybe a bit about attitude, which is important in itself, but nothing really enlightening about how a player might go in the knockout stages when the going gets tough.

That Binny, who has had some influential matches (if not recently) all of a sudden seems central to Borthwick's plans, I think is a recognition that Dombrandt fluffed his lines in the extended audition of the 6N. I think Binny travels if he's anything like.

 

[Geordie]

Training and a warm up match against a tier 3 country don't really tell us much TBH. Maybe a bit about attitude, which is important in itself, but nothing really enlightening about how a player might go in the knockout stages when the going gets tough.

That Binny, who has had some influential matches (if not recently) all of a sudden seems central to Borthwick's plans, I think is a recognition that Dombrandt fluffed his lines in the extended audition of the 6N. I think Binny travels if he's anything like.

Wales wont be happy to hear you call them that....

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wales wont be happy to hear you call them that....

I enjoy being a bit facetious - particularly as I think it's the only word in the English language with all 5 vowels in order.

But seriously the warm ups are often mix and match sides with some players busting a gut to prove a point and others just praying not to get hurt. Intensity also is several notches below normal tests. Good to stretch the legs but we don't really learn much.

 

[Nudger]

Does Borthwick go with care, smith and dombrandt on the bech,

 

[BPM]

Potentially, yes. Care, Smith and Arundell on the bench would definitely add impact. The only downside there is that Smith only covers one position.

As long as they get more than 1 minute.

 

[AlRums]

I remember this like it was yesterday, hard to believe it was 28 years ago.

 

[Saintjay]

Does Borthwick go with care, smith and dombrandt on the bech,

Depends if he goes with a Ford / Faz combo. Can definitely see Smith being third choice at 10 now.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Potentially, yes. Care, Smith and Arundell on the bench would definitely add impact. The only downside there is that Smith only covers one position.

As long as they get more than 1 minute.

I think 'would definitely' is stretching it.

One previously discarded veteran, one ingenu where you're just buying potential (whose selection I support) and one enigma in the sense that his talent says he should be a far more central figure than he currently is. None of whom is coming off a vintage club season.

I get what you mean in that all are attack minded, bring tricks and enjoy playing at pace. But I'd hope they might be able to change things, not expect.

 

[TopTen2003]

Anyone think Tom Pearson gets in or is he another "inexperience" casualty?

I quite like the idea of him having the Underhill role for 2023, but not sure that's the way Borthwick has been looking at the squad?