England World Cup Squad

[Geordie]

Part of my point is that no gameplan is so rigid that the 10 should ignore overlaps and good attacking opportunities simply because that's not what the next phase is supposed to look like.

Farrell is often described as a 'coach on the pitch' or 'the orchestrator of the attack' etc. I can see that with Saracens, but for England all he appears to do is follow a plan regardless of whether it's the right thing to do or not. If he really is running the show, he's doing a bad job of it.

Even if he is being asked to follow a 'robotic' game plan, he has the experience and ability to change it when opportunities come up, but he just doesn't … he's the captain FFS, it's not like he's going to be dropped for making good decisions on the fly.

I agree with you. He is a very different player for Saracens than you see for England. For England he is often the facilitator. Not the playmaker or runner etc...just the one who continuously ensures the gameplan is on course. But often thats the issue....fine when its working...but when its going horribly wrong you have to change the gameplan.

I said above i firmly believe it will be Ford and Farrell 10 and 12...and i still believe it will be. and one of Lawrence or Manu at 13 for the oomph.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I wasn't that impressed with Ford when he has at tigers to be honest. Don't think he showed any more than Farrell/Smith has done at club level and tigers gameplan was pretty limiting.

I guess we will finally see if farrell has been following a gameplan to the letter and can bring club form to the big stage or if he just doesn't have that next level ability to be a top top 10.

Don't get me wrong I like Ford but can't see what he brings to push Farrell to 12.

 

[Geordie]

I wasn't that impressed with Ford when he has at tigers to be honest. Don't think he showed any more than Farrell/Smith has done at club level and tigers gameplan was pretty limiting.

I guess we will finally see if farrell has been following a gameplan to the letter and can bring club form to the big stage or if he just doesn't have that next level ability to be a top top 10.

Don't get me wrong I like Ford but can't see what he brings to push Farrell to 12.

Absolutely...post WC we need to be moving him on i think though...finding a nice new young 10 / 12 combo..

 

[Jimbo]

I'm kind of split on this but of the two without a doubt in my mind Farrell looked miles better of the two in the final, I don't really remember Ford having many real involvements, appreciate there is far more than two individuals.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The 10s aren't in a silo though - we have to look at them in context. Particularly fast front foot ball and the service from 9. There hasn't been enough of the former and the latter has been largely woeful for years.

If the 10 is getting stodge we'll never look like the Fijian sevens team irrespective of game plan.

It's all interlinked. I've moaned for years about our pack not being dominant enough - which they're not - but 9 is our biggest single issue for me as they set the tempo. Youngs & Care are veterans while JVP either flattered to deceive or is suffering 2nd season syndrome.

 

[Saintjay]

The 10s aren't in a silo though - we have to look at them in context. Particularly fast front foot ball and the service from 9. There hasn't been enough of the former and the latter has been largely woeful for years.

If the 10 is getting stodge we'll never look like the Fijian sevens team irrespective of game plan.

It's all interlinked. I've moaned for years about our pack not being dominant enough - which they're not - but 9 is our biggest single issue for me as they set the tempo. Youngs & Care are veterans while JVP either flattered to deceive or is suffering 2nd season syndrome.

I think the ditching of Alex Mitchell shows that tempo setting, attacking threat around the break down etc is far from Borthwick's mind. I have a hunch box kicking the leather off the ball might be might be closer to it.

 

[BPM]

I don't necessarily agree. I think it was a choice between Care and Mitchell for the 'tempo setting, attacking threat' and Care won out, probably through a combination of experience, possibly his familiarity with Dombrandt and Smith and possibly through form in camp.

I would have kept Mitchell and dropped Youngs, but either way he was never going to be the starting 9. Care could be though.

I also think your pessimism is clouding everything else. I'm not massively impressed by what I've seen from Borthwick so far, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Seemingly, you've already made your mind up.

Lastly, I don't relish the prospect of 'kicking the leather off the ball', but if it means we win games, I'll take it.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think Borthwick needs to be given the benefit of the doubt for at least a year or two. He was right when he took over and said that England arnt good at anything right now and he was correct. Our stats, set piece, attack and defence was really poor so SB has a complete rebuilding process on his hands which was never going to be completed by the World Cup.

If kicking is the main tactic then we need a really solid set of set piece operators, a brilliant line out and some smashing centres. If SB has a plan that we can see and a set of players who are best placed to execute that plan ill be happy. Continuity in selection and gameplan is all I ask.

 

[Saintjay]

I don't necessarily agree. I think it was a choice between Care and Mitchell for the 'tempo setting, attacking threat' and Care won out, probably through a combination of experience, possibly his familiarity with Dombrandt and Smith and possibly through form in camp.

I would have kept Mitchell and dropped Youngs, but either way he was never going to be the starting 9. Care could be though.

I also think your pessimism is clouding everything else. I'm not massively impressed by what I've seen from Borthwick so far, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Seemingly, you've already made your mind up.

Lastly, I don't relish the prospect of 'kicking the leather off the ball', but if it means we win games, I'll take it.

A 36yo is Englands tempo setting 9. That thought alone feels me with joy.

An argument also could be made for only taking two 9's. Leave one at home after the camps and recall if necessary. It's not like France is the other end of the world.

I'm not pessimistic I'm realistic when it comes to England. Since 2019 we have not been good enough. The age old problem of players and form vs experience. Ultimately we don't have the players at the moment. It's not pessimistic to say we are not as good as the top four in the world at the moment. Borthwick might well pull a rabbit out the hat this RWC. However even his opinion of England when he took over is not far removed from mine. I'll see how it goes and will always support the manager and England shall we say.

I have no issue with England winning ugly. I can find enjoyment in a match ending 3 - 0. Do i think England currently have the players to win ugly that's a different question.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Me watching Ben Youngs take 35 seconds to box kick out on the full for the 5th time this half

 

[BrokenWing]

He was right when he took over and said that England arnt good at anything right now and he was correct.

I mean, that didn't take supernatural levels of perception to figure out did it.

IMO, picking a dad's army team is only acceptable if you're standing a chance of winning.

We are quite capable of picking an old team and still going out of the group, wasting more games.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't necessarily agree. I think it was a choice between Care and Mitchell for the 'tempo setting, attacking threat' and Care won out, probably through a combination of experience, possibly his familiarity with Dombrandt and Smith and possibly through form in camp.

I would have kept Mitchell and dropped Youngs, but either way he was never going to be the starting 9. Care could be though.

I also think your pessimism is clouding everything else. I'm not massively impressed by what I've seen from Borthwick so far, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Seemingly, you've already made your mind up.

Lastly, I don't relish the prospect of 'kicking the leather off the ball', but if it means we win games, I'll take it.

Yeah there's a difference between kicking the leather off the ball to achieve something and kicking it because you've got no other ideas. England at the tail end of the Jones era kicked not to actually achieve anything but because they struggled to do anything else and built a game that simply relied on our opponents doing something wrong after we kicked it. Invariably we were the ones that usually did something wrong.

 

[BrokenWing]

Jones seemed to have looked at the analysis and concluded the best teams kicked a lot... But ignored the qualifier well.

 

[BPM]

A 36yo is Englands tempo setting 9. That thought alone feels me with joy.

An argument also could be made for only taking two 9's. Leave one at home after the camps and recall if necessary. It's not like France is the other end of the world.

I'm not pessimistic I'm realistic when it comes to England. Since 2019 we have not been good enough. The age old problem of players and form vs experience. Ultimately we don't have the players at the moment. It's not pessimistic to say we are not as good as the top four in the world at the moment. Borthwick might well pull a rabbit out the hat this RWC. However even his opinion of England when he took over is not far removed from mine. I'll see how it goes and will always support the manager and England shall we say.

I have no issue with England winning ugly. I can find enjoyment in a match ending 3 - 0. Do i think England currently have the players to win ugly that's a different question.

I'm not overly optimistic on our prospects either, but I don't agree that not picking Mitchell automatically equals box kick everything.

Re. Care, age doesn't really matter in a tournament situation if the player can still do what's being asked of them. I think Care can do that.

Picking him is only a retrograde step if the players not selected are clearly and obviously better. I don't think they are.

As I said earlier, Mitchell's best hope was really to bring impact off the bench whereas I feel Care has a better chance of starting.

 

[Saintjay]

I'm not overly optimistic on our prospects either, but I don't agree that not picking Mitchell automatically equals box kick everything.

Re. Care, age doesn't really matter in a tournament situation if the player can still do what's being asked of them. I think Care can do that.

Picking him is only a retrograde step if the players not selected are clearly and obviously better. I don't think they are.

As I said earlier, Mitchell's best hope was really to bring impact off the bench whereas I feel Care has a better chance of starting.

Don't get me wrong, Care is my favourite out of the three picked.

Mitchell probably doesn't suit Englands game plan and yet I'm sure if he's told to play Borthwicks structures he would. The frustrating thing for me in my view is what ever the plan currently Mitchell is better than at least one or maybe two of those picked. However he will trust those others if going we a more Tigers based approach hence no Mitchell. After the RWC Mitchell is still young enough to have a shout.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

TBF Ben Youngs end of last season was playing some of his best rugby in a long time.
Granted thats not hard, and that tends to be his MO
I would keep Youngs just in case we face Aus though

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think Borthwick needs to be given the benefit of the doubt for at least a year or two. He was right when he took over and said that England arnt good at anything right now and he was correct. Our stats, set piece, attack and defence was really poor so SB has a complete rebuilding process on his hands which was never going to be completed by the World Cup.

Regardless of what I thought of Jones, I also thought that was crass from Borthwick - he was basically saying that he was going to fail and blaming someone else. Great message! And if things really were so bad any semi competent coach should have been licking their lips at at the prospect of being able to get an improvement in 5 minutes flat - not world beating but at least signs of organisation and a plan. He didn't. In fact he led us to our greatest humiliation on home turf.

We might not be world beaters but we have an experienced front row and Lawes, Curry and Itoje have all been considered around the best in the world in their positions at various points. Even if not at quite those levels they should all be doing a high standard job.

We've got a couple of centurion half backs who may not be spring chickens but who should be making up for that with experience, judgement, accuracy and simply doing the right thing.

Centres are more vexed, but Manu's been fit for a while and can do a basic trucking up / threat job. Lawrence looks like he'll become a real class player while Daly and Slade are also decent options.

Watson is an automatic pick when fit, maybe not world XV but still very good and Steward is solid at FB.

There's also young promise / bench impact from some older heads and newer exciting players like T Willis, Pearson and Arundell.

There are obvious weaknesses, but this shouldn't be a squad with rock bottom expectations either. I don't think Borthwick was being cute and managing expectations, I genuinely don't think he believes he can make a quick impact, and if he doesn't the players won't either. We need to see if Robertson will be successful with the ABs, but one of the reasons why he's been successful so far is that he's upbeat and instils belief. How often in the article below would you exchange the word "Robertson" for "Borthwick"?

https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/what-the-crusaders-dynasty-taught-us-about-scott-robertson/

 

[Geordie]

If we are going to kick alot and I believe we will, then Ford will be 10..he's a very good kicker in rhat regards, and the biggest thing will be the kick chase.
Its imperative whoever is the nominated chaser...make it count EVERYTIME that ball goes up.
A prime Johnny May was exceptional at rhat.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Its imperative whoever is the nominated chaser...make it count EVERYTIME that ball goes up.
A prime Johnny May was exceptional at rhat.

A current Tom Roebuck is also fantastic at it.

 

[BPM]

I think our centres are underrated and massively under utilised. However, we have some very good kickers and May, Watson and Steward are all very good aerially, so while it might be unattractive, there's a pretty good chance it's pretty effective.