England World Cup Squad

[TRF_Olyy]

A current Tom Roebuck is also fantastic at it.

Yeah pretty sure we were statistically the best kicking game in the league this season - Warr most retained box kicks and Roebuck most retained attacking competitions (those stats were both a month or two before the end of the season but I don't think we got any worse at it, especially when Ford and Roebuck got more used to each other)

Both will probably be playing for Scotland by the next 6N

 

[BPM]

Maybe … I'm hoping that there's a bit more change post RWC.

 

[Geordie]

Maybe … I'm hoping that there's a bit more change post RWC.

I expect there to be. I think he's gonig with a style that he knows shouldn't take too long to put together a reasonably competitive side. Then he can evolve it after rhe world Cup.

Of course we're all assuming that's what he's doing...

 

[Nudger]

Ford or smith could give their centres all the time and space in the world, but if that centre at 12 is Farrell it's a non threat unfortunately. Ford also doesn't have a running game or at least not one we have seen in the last 3-4 years. Combine the two and and it's 2 wasted positions. Farrell is the best 10 out the lot and therefore should start at 10. Manu and Lawrence have both shown they are better 12s than any other options we have in the squad right now.

I agree but Borthwick will want them to kick the leather off it, do kick chasers everywhere

 

[BPM]

I expect there to be. I think he's gonig with a style that he knows shouldn't take too long to put together a reasonably competitive side. Then he can evolve it after rhe world Cup.

Of course we're all assuming that's what he's doing...

I think you're spot on in your assessment.

Time will tell, but I think Borthwick is being underestimated/mischaracterised quite a bit. I didn't like him as a player, but I think it's fair to say he's shown a good bit of potential as a coach and the willingness to test himself in different environments. I think this job has very probably come too early for him, but I think he is smart enough to approach it sensibly.

I don't think his Tigers side was as one-dimensional as people want to make out. Yes, the were pragmatic, but they also played some attractive rugby and were tactically smart. If he can achieve that with England we'll do well.

I don't have lofty expectations for this RWC, but I think Borthwick has enough about him to get us through the group. Beyond that, who knows?

 

[Geordie]

I think you're spot on in your assessment.

Time will tell, but I think Borthwick is being underestimated/mischaracterised quite a bit. I didn't like him as a player, but I think it's fair to say he's shown a good bit of potential as a coach and the willingness to test himself in different environments. I think this job has very probably come too early for him, but I think he is smart enough to approach it sensibly.

I don't think his Tigers side was as one-dimensional as people want to make out. Yes, the were pragmatic, but they also played some attractive rugby and were tactically smart. If he can achieve that with England we'll do well.

I don't have lofty expectations for this RWC, but I think Borthwick has enough about him to get us through the group. Beyond that, who knows?

Exactly...a pack with Marler, George, Curry, Itoje, Lawes, Genge, Jack Willis and a few powerhouse youngsters like George Martin, Tom Pearson etc "should" be able to compete with most packs at the world cup.

And in Ford, Farrell (a bit less rigid in his role) a hopefully fit Manu & Lawrence, Watson, Steward, Murley etc etc then we should have enough to create try scoring opportunities. We just need to be efficient when we get those chances.

The biggest task for SB will be blending this squad in so little time...when most of the big favorites have had 4 years to do it.

 

[BPM]

True, but that's one of the reasons why the squad hasn't changed much and where it has it's mostly players and who Borthwick knows either from Tigers or his previous coaching role with England.

He's been criticised for bringing his Tigers team with him, but given the time constraints, it makes total sense to work with people he's familiar with and knows how they work.

 

[Saintjay]

In order to cover my bases and prevent any posts coming back to haunt me. After the RWC or in four years time.

1) A top four team will win the World Cup this year.
2) A team outside the top four will win the World Cup this year.

Either way i called it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't have lofty expectations for this RWC, but I think Borthwick has enough about him to get us through the group.

Cripes. Without wishing to sound arrogantly English about it that should be below minimum requirements for that group where we're the top ranked team. If we don't, the terrace cry of 'Sacked in the morning' will be echoing round.

I like that Borthwick's tested himself elsewhere, but I don't think he has the right skillset for this job in any event and it's definitely too early. I'd love him to ram those words back down my throat, but would genuinely be amazed if he's in charge for 2027.

He's been criticised for bringing his Tigers team with him, but given the time constraints, it makes total sense to work with people he's familiar with and knows how they work.

Can see that point, but depends on whether those coaches will be credible in the eyes of the players. It's a lightweight team at this level - an uncapped player might hang on their every word but will the 40+ cap veterans who are likely to make up most of the starting XV?

I was talking to a communications coach earlier. There has to be substance in what you say, but their take is that only 7% of your impact is what you say, the rest is how you say it and body language. That's where Sinfield might score highly but Borthwick won't unless his private face is very different to his public one.

 

[Geordie]

Cripes. Without wishing to sound arrogantly English about it that should be below minimum requirements for that group where we're the top ranked team. If we don't, the terrace cry of 'Sacked in the morning' will be echoing round.

I like that Borthwick's tested himself elsewhere, but I don't think he has the right skillset for this job in any event and it's definitely too early. I'd love him to ram those words back down my throat, but would genuinely be amazed if he's in charge for 2027.



Can see that point, but depends on whether those coaches will be credible in the eyes of the players. It's a lightweight team at this level - an uncapped player might hang on their every word but will the 40+ cap veterans who are likely to make up most of the starting XV?

I was talking to a communications coach earlier. There has to be substance in what you say, but their take is that only 7% of your impact is what you say, the rest is how you say it and body language. That's where Sinfield might score highly but Borthwick won't unless his private face is very different to his public one.

What are they?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

What are they?

What it's not is technical although there is no harm in him being hands on in his areas of expertise if he wants to.

This is a leadership role and he is very light on leadership credentials as a coach having only done two and a bit years at Tigers. Where things go wrong the heat comes onto the top man, where is his well of experience to draw on when the going gets tough?

Coordination and planning is part of it and he's probably quite good there.

He will also need clarity of thought. Early days, but we didn't really see that in the 6N.

But mainly this role is front of house and I see the key parts as inspiration, communication and vision, getting buy in to him and his project - the detail can be left to others. We can only work on public perceptions, but he comes across to me as someone whose solution to problems is 'work harder' which is very laudable in itself, but will players walk across broken glass for him? Will he inspire players to get the best out of themselves? Is he more Ferguson / Klopp or McLaren? Blair or Brown?

 

[Geordie]

Well i can understand that.

Hes a very different character to Jones and i dont mind that at all. Hes not into all the mind games with the press and other head coaches etc. And i like that as i grew very tired of Jones games and distractions. The front of house stuff doesnt bother me in the slightest. He faces the press in a calm calculated manner. Excellent...he not giving anything away. I have no doubt he is capable of giving the hairdryer treatment when required (does anyone actually know what hes like behind the scenes?)but probably holds off and has his number 2 Mr Sinfield along side him who will do plenty of that, just as Gatland had Shaun Edwards...
I dont think you have to be a screamer and shouter to inspire people to follow you.

I see the role itself as part coaching but also part overseer / planner. Bringing the right people in to coach what HE wants the team to do, both short term and developing the long term strategies. Hes clearly adept at the short term - he wont a Prem ***le after barely any time. You are correct however, we have no idea how he goes long term. How would he have moved the tigers on from the pragmatic side they were? How would he cope if the tigers started to lose. How would he change things. Only time will tell....

The France game will not be forgotten on him. It was a royal humping and he wont like that. Im pretty sure the England team wont forget it either.

The style of rugby that he won the prem ***le with is also a style that is very capable of taking a team to a World Cup victory. Do i think we'll achieve that ....no. I think we are short of top level ability and experience in too many positions. However i do think we have it in us to maybe even make a Semi Final with a bit of good fortune here and there. If we achieve that, blood a few of the kids and then start the evolution towards the 6n and onwards then that wont be the worst outcome of the world cup.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Well i can understand that.

Hes a very different character to Jones and i dont mind that at all. Hes not into all the mind games with the press and other head coaches etc. And i like that as i grew very tired of Jones games and distractions. The front of house stuff doesnt bother me in the slightest. He faces the press in a calm calculated manner. Excellent...he not giving anything away. I have no doubt he is capable of giving the hairdryer treatment when required (does anyone actually know what hes like behind the scenes?)but probably holds off and has his number 2 Mr Sinfield along side him who will do plenty of that, just as Gatland had Shaun Edwards...
I dont think you have to be a screamer and shouter to inspire people to follow you.

I see the role itself as part coaching but also part overseer / planner. Bringing the right people in to coach what HE wants the team to do, both short term and developing the long term strategies. Hes clearly adept at the short term - he wont a Prem ***le after barely any time. You are correct however, we have no idea how he goes long term. How would he have moved the tigers on from the pragmatic side they were? How would he cope if the tigers started to lose. How would he change things. Only time will tell....

The France game will not be forgotten on him. It was a royal humping and he wont like that. Im pretty sure the England team wont forget it either.

The style of rugby that he won the prem ***le with is also a style that is very capable of taking a team to a World Cup victory. Do i think we'll achieve that ....no. I think we are short of top level ability and experience in too many positions. However i do think we have it in us to maybe even make a Semi Final with a bit of good fortune here and there. If we achieve that, blood a few of the kids and then start the evolution towards the 6n and onwards then that wont be the worst outcome of the world cup.

When I say front of house, I don't just mean externally with the media and supporters, he also sets the tempo and mood for the players and coaching staff. All need to buy into him.

And if you can get an advantage by playing some occasional well aimed mind games, I'm all for that. But not the kind of nonsense Jones used to come up with.

You're right, a leader doesn't need to be a shouter and a screamer, but they do need to carry natural authority and gravitas, gifts that are granted to very few (and far fewer than think they have them).

You mention the France game. No one will want a repetition of that, but the players won't quickly forget who oversaw that either.

As for the World Cup, the group ought not to cause many problems, and we have as kind a draw as we could hope for. I'm not expecting us to be in the mix, but with a following wind, who knows?

 

[BrokenWing]

I have no doubt he is capable of giving the hairdryer treatment when required (does anyone actually know what hes like behind the scenes?)but probably holds off and has his number 2 Mr Sinfield along side him who will do plenty of that, just as Gatland had Shaun Edwards...
I dont think you have to be a screamer and shouter to inspire people to follow you.

He strikes me as more of a "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed" person.

 

[Geordie]

When I say front of house, I don't just mean externally with the media and supporters, he also sets the tempo and mood for the players and coaching staff. All need to buy into him.

And if you can get an advantage by playing some occasional well aimed mind games, I'm all for that. But not the kind of nonsense Jones used to come up with.

You're right, a leader doesn't need to be a shouter and a screamer, but they do need to carry natural authority and gravitas, gifts that are granted to very few (and far fewer than think they have them).

You mention the France game. No one will want a repetition of that, but the players won't quickly forget who oversaw that either.

As for the World Cup, the group ought not to cause many problems, and we have as kind a draw as we could hope for. I'm not expecting us to be in the mix, but with a following wind, who knows?

Well i have never seen him in front of his squad etc, but to win a ***le you need to have your squad backing. He also had a few youngsters in their aswell. So he must have a good presence on the training pitch etc.

I think what im trying to say is that the person you see in the interviews might not quite be the person you see on the training pitch and in the pre match team talks etc,

 

[BPM]

Agreed. He must have some degree of gravitas. After all, he is a former England captain and whatever you think of Eddie Jones, he's notoriously hard to impress and yet he clearly rated Borthwick.

 

[Saintjay]

I found an old article which i can't link. Borthwicks four key talking points on improving England. Where he feels improvement is needed based on England not being particularly good at anything.

Attacking speed - Interesting in that he particularly references Harlequins in this. When and where to take points.

Line out- No surprise he's a famed line out nauce.

Defence - Definitely agree on that one.

Cohesion and clarity - Clarity being his big thing with Tigers. The team working as a whole for every situation.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Attacking speed
Defence

I knows he's gotta back his boys, but Wigglesworth and Sinfield are two very uninspiring picks for these considering the other options around at the time

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Well i have never seen
I think what im trying to say is that the person you see in the interviews might not quite be the person you see on the training pitch and in the pre match team talks etc,

Can't disagree with that.

whatever you think of Eddie Jones, he's notoriously hard to impress and yet he clearly rated Borthwick.

True although the popular view of Jones was that he was a control freak who didn't welcome challenge. So someone technically excellent in their facet of the game who didn't rock the boat might have been right up his street.

None of us know what goes on behind the scenes but looking in from the outside I think that Borthwick is ill equipped for this role. As an England fan I really hope I'm wrong.

 

[Geordie]

I guess we'll all have some answers in the next few months