England World Cup Squad

[BPM]

Are George or Sinckler still decent carriers?

Genge is. Not so much Sinckler. He seems to have found he prefers little tip ons than carrying into contact. He does it well, but he does it too often these days when often a simple carry would be better.

 

[TopTen2003]

Not sure how many back rowers we'll take, but it's Ludlam I'm struggling to see a place for. Good, solid, versatile but not a starter, or even a second choice, in any position and not really an X factor bench option who might just produce a piece of magic.

At 7 he'd be behind Curry, J Willis and Underhill, all of whom can play 6 too as can Lawes with Itoje and possibly Martin also able to cover. We'll presumably take 2 specialist 8s who'd be picked ahead of him there. If you're looking for the upping the pace off the bench option that could be a Pearson v Earl face off - both 7s with Earl able to slip in to 8, where Curry could also cover in an emergency.

Agree - Ludlams "versatility" to me equates lack of any specialism that would get him in the team, at this moment in time.

Would love to be proven wrong and him really step up but haven't seen enough so far to include him.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

TBH if Ludlam can just bosh out at least a 9/10 every single game and do the basics to a very high level, I'd be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. You don't need all players to be x-factor players, you need some who will just be rock solid. Probably an unfair comparison but Hill is widely regarded as one of the best 6's of his era and yet isn't renowned as a flash player, he just did everything he was supposed to when he was supposed to and did it extremely well over and over.

Sometimes xfactor players can give you that extra edge but sometimes, especially when it feels the opposition is getting on top of you, you need someone to just churn through the grunt work and bog them down. Having said all this, this relies on Ludlam going beyond what the Xfactor players can provide. If his workrate and effectiveness is not better than the alternatives then, unfortunately, I think he would need to make way.

 

[Saintjay]

Agree - Ludlams "versatility" to me equates lack of any specialism that would get him in the team, at this moment in time.

Would love to be proven wrong and him really step up but haven't seen enough so far to include him.

His versatility is the problem? Most tackles i believe of any English player in the 6 nations last year. 2nd most lines out won out of any English player. Voted Englands player of the six nations. But he hasn't stepped up and should be dropped for some players on reputation. Ludlam doesn't need dropping. It's the others that need to fight and win the shirt back. If they can prove they are better now then so be it.

This is getting all very Eddie Jones.
We can't pick Mercer as he's no test experience, he might not be performing in training. We can't pick Ludlam as he is performing for England.

The only common denominator is reputation beats form.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

TBH if Ludlam can just bosh out at least a 9/10 every single game and do the basics to a very high level, I'd be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. You don't need all players to be x-factor players, you need some who will just be rock solid. Probably an unfair comparison but Hill is widely regarded as one of the best 6's of his era and yet isn't renowned as a flash player, he just did everything he was supposed to when he was supposed to and did it extremely well over and over.

Sometimes xfactor players can give you that extra edge but sometimes, especially when it feels the opposition is getting on top of you, you need someone to just churn through the grunt work and bog them down. Having said all this, this relies on Ludlam going beyond what the Xfactor players can provide. If his workrate and effectiveness is not better than the alternatives then, unfortunately, I think he would need to make way.

6.5 / 10 maybe. If he's 9 every time he's probaby above McCaw in the pantheon!

Point well made about needing the piano shifters to allow the players to play.

I think it was @BPM who mentioned Sinckler tipping the ball on a lot. Lawes does too and while it can be effective, more often it just means the recipient takes the hit instead with no real net gain. With Lawes in particular it's now his default option. Drives me nuts - come on big guys, front up and take it to them!

 

[Nudger]

His versatility is the problem? Most tackles i believe of any English player in the 6 nations last year. 2nd most lines out won out of any English player. Voted Englands player of the six nations. But he hasn't stepped up and should be dropped for some players on reputation. Ludlam doesn't need dropping. It's the others that need to fight and win the shirt back. If they can prove they are better now then so be it.

This is getting all very Eddie Jones.
We can't pick Mercer as he's no test experience, he might not be performing in training. We can't pick Ludlam as he is performing for England.

The only common denominator is reputation beats form.

Players get better the longer they are not picked

 

[Nudger]

Are George or Sinckler still decent carriers?

Not against France or springboks

 

[Lé Ddanno]

and pack of
1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Hill
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Billy

Might as well have kept in Eddie

Needs more locks imo

 

[Reiser99]

While I do enjoy a good discussion about selection, I still think that isn't the issue. England have some fantastic players, but for a combination of reasons they aren't replicating their form at international level. This includes players who have done so previously like Itoje and Farrell. Somewhere under EJ, England lost the ability to play as a team. They have consistently for a while now looked like a team of individuals all trying to do something different. If there is a game plan it's clearly not being followed or executed properly. Is that the fault of the players or the coaches? I'd say the latter, but I think players have to bare some responsibility too. Nothing I've seen under SB suggests he's fixed this. I still have no idea what England's identity is, what type of game do they want to play, how are they going to try and execute this game plan. Again in the 6Ns they didn't look like a team on the same wavelength. Yes SB had very little time with them, but you would have hoped for a small improvement.

We're now going into a world cup either sticking with the players who haven't performed or trying new players who will disrupt what little teamwork there is. At this stage I honestly think it's irrelevant who SB picks because I don't see England gelling as a team by the world cup and for the coaches to have given them a clear game plan which they execute well. Definitely against the likes of Ireland and France who have spent longer than this world cup cycle planning and preparing for this world cup.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Agree with the above point, England do seem all on different wave lengths. You have players going into contact with forwards running away from them, backs all in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm guessing Eddie had such a complex perspective gameplan that just never worked and therefore players are lining up for a next phase that's never going to happen.

Let's hope SB fixes it but that will take time to completely change the way they play international rugby.

 

[BPM]

While I do enjoy a good discussion about selection, I still think that isn't the issue. England have some fantastic players, but for a combination of reasons they aren't replicating their form at international level. This includes players who have done so previously like Itoje and Farrell. Somewhere under EJ, England lost the ability to play as a team. They have consistently for a while now looked like a team of individuals all trying to do something different. If there is a game plan it's clearly not being followed or executed properly. Is that the fault of the players or the coaches? I'd say the latter, but I think players have to bare some responsibility too. Nothing I've seen under SB suggests he's fixed this. I still have no idea what England's identity is, what type of game do they want to play, how are they going to try and execute this game plan. Again in the 6Ns they didn't look like a team on the same wavelength. Yes SB had very little time with them, but you would have hoped for a small improvement.

We're now going into a world cup either sticking with the players who haven't performed or trying new players who will disrupt what little teamwork there is. At this stage I honestly think it's irrelevant who SB picks because I don't see England gelling as a team by the world cup and for the coaches to have given them a clear game plan which they execute well. Definitely against the likes of Ireland and France who have spent longer than this world cup cycle planning and preparing for this world cup.

I don't have particularly high hopes for Borthwick, but I do think it was naive to expect for an overnight improvement in the 6N. He was still finding his feet and the issues with the players/systems was never going to be fixed immediately.

While I do have a fair few questions over Borthwick, I think it is established fact that he is incredibly meticulous in his research and prep. He's now had time to consider his game plan and has an extended camp to implement it. I expect it to be simple and unattractive, but at this point I think the majority of England fans would accept results over style.

I'd never have chosen to be in this position, but to be written off and dismissed is probably good for us right now. I don't think we'll be fun to watch, but I think we'll do OK.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

While I do have a fair few questions over Borthwick, I think it is established fact that he is incredibly meticulous in his research and prep. He's now had time to consider his game plan and has an extended camp to implement it. I expect it to be simple and unattractive, but at this point I think the majority of England fans would accept results over style.

That's probably SB's strength, but there are a billion and one geeks poring over laptops doing that. His job is direction, clarity and most importantly communication.

If you're talking about game plan the 10 is central, yet we flip-flopped Smith, Faz, Faz, Smith, Faz in the 6N. Very different players - not clarity or consistency.

While it can take time to adapt to a new coach, the team were in a position where the only way was up and it should've been an open goal to get some form of initial improvement, whether in results or performance. He didn't, and surrounding himself with such an inexperienced coaching team was a poor move - no authoritative Wayne Smith type figure to provide wise counsel.

The only thing he can do now is to make sure that we have a simple game plan that is well executed. And while even that feels like a bit of a stretch, if we can find that, the draw is relatively kind.

 

[Saintjay]

I don't have particularly high hopes for Borthwick, but I do think it was naive to expect for an overnight improvement in the 6N. He was still finding his feet and the issues with the players/systems was never going to be fixed immediately.

While I do have a fair few questions over Borthwick, I think it is established fact that he is incredibly meticulous in his research and prep. He's now had time to consider his game plan and has an extended camp to implement it. I expect it to be simple and unattractive, but at this point I think the majority of England fans would accept results over style.

I'd never have chosen to be in this position, but to be written off and dismissed is probably good for us right now. I don't think we'll be fun to watch, but I think we'll do OK.

I think you are right. We are going to see a team play like Tigers a couple of years ago. It's going to be attritional low percentage possession rugby. Which will probably suit knock out tournament rugby.
One pod i listen to thinks Lawrence will not be fit. Which would leave Manu / Porter for the 12 shirt. I can definitely see Ford/Farrell starting. People won't like it but it'll suit Englands game plan. As will starting May, he'll chase kicks all day. This team will have 2019 vibes all over it with a Tigers flavour.

 

[Geordie]

The difference is BIlly V and Dombrandt have been poor for England. Clearly poor form for England doesn't count for much either.

Has Dombrandt been poor though. In his carrying and attacking he hasnt been his Quins stamp...but his other nitty gritty work has actually been very good. His breakdown work etc...

If they can continue that and just get his run timing sorted so hes not ahead of the catch or behind it etc then suddenly you have an 8 that can be very good. Ill be watching with interest to see how they work on that.

Tom Willis is a very good young 8...who should improve rapidly with Saracens.

 

[Geordie]

Not sure how many back rowers we'll take, but it's Ludlam I'm struggling to see a place for. Good, solid, versatile but not a starter, or even a second choice, in any position and not really an X factor bench option who might just produce a piece of magic.

At 7 he'd be behind Curry, J Willis and Underhill, all of whom can play 6 too as can Lawes with Itoje and possibly Martin also able to cover. We'll presumably take 2 specialist 8s who'd be picked ahead of him there. If you're looking for the upping the pace off the bench option that could be a Pearson v Earl face off - both 7s with Earl able to slip in to 8, where Curry could also cover in an emergency.

Agree re Ludlum. I also think Pearson looks like he has a much higher playing ceiling than Him. Again we'll see come ther WC and next season.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

That's probably SB's strength, but there are a billion and one geeks poring over laptops doing that. His job is direction, clarity and most importantly communication.

If you're talking about game plan the 10 is central, yet we flip-flopped Smith, Faz, Faz, Smith, Faz in the 6N. Very different players - not clarity or consistency.

While it can take time to adapt to a new coach, the team were in a position where the only way was up and it should've been an open goal to get some form of initial improvement, whether in results or performance. He didn't, and surrounding himself with such an inexperienced coaching team was a poor move - no authoritative Wayne Smith type figure to provide wise counsel.

The only thing he can do now is to make sure that we have a simple game plan that is well executed. And while even that feels like a bit of a stretch, if we can find that, the draw is relatively kind.

I kinda agree with this. IMO it's the job of the assistant coaches to go into minute detail regarding the tactics they oversee, the head coach is there to provide direction and make sure it all meshes together. It's the same as any organisation really, the higher up you are, the less you are supposed to get into the detail, delegating that to other people who have a more limited field of responsibility.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I do now think Ludlam will prob be taken, as people say he had a great 6N's.

6. Lawes, Ludlam
7. Curry, J.WIllis
8. Vunipola, T.Willis

I can see Chessum or Martin covering 6 more than Ludlam though.
I think if it was Eddie we might see so more changes come RWC but I think Borthwick will play it safe in a lot of ways

 

[Geordie]

I just cant see how Pearson will not be there.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Has Dombrandt been poor though. In his carrying and attacking he hasnt been his Quins stamp...but his other nitty gritty work has actually been very good. His breakdown work etc...

For England? Yes, compared to club form and other players at least - I'd say average, rather than poor, but average isn't good enough when there are alternatives that need testing.

His stats, with the leaders underneath,
Ironically, considering the outcome, the France game was his best game - in theory you'd say he's part of a balanced backrow with the Flankers doing all the tackling, but it didn't really look that way in reality,

Don't really know what the 8s role is with England, though, if they're not tackling much and not carrying more?

vs Scotland:
4 tackles (1 miss), 64m
Curry 13 tackles, Ludlam 77m

vs Ireland:
10 tackles (2 missed), 31m
Willis 22 tackles, Ludlam 39m

vs Italy:
9 tackles (2 missed), 70m
Ludlam 22 tackles, Chessum 37m

vs Wales:
6 tackles (1 missed), 56m
Itoje 17 tackles, Genge 61m

vs France:
13 tackles (1missed), 44m
Ludlam 12 tackles, Ludlam 27m

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I just cant see how Pearson will not be there.

He'll be up against Ludlam and Earl for 6/7 cover,
Ludlam has tons of credit in the bank after the 6N

Probably come down to Earl vs Pearson for the final spot, with it going to whoever has the best warmup series - but will they even get proper game time or will Borthwick use it to try and gel his RWC starting side together?