IMO England need to start a completely fresh team post WC with very few semi shoe inns, Curry, Earl and Mitchel are probably the only ones I can think of who currently warrant it, there will be others continued but can't think of too many others who have consistently performed well, seems harsh on Ludlham who has performed pretty well just don't think he has it at the top level, if others fail to surpass him and he is still legitimatly amongst the best that's a different story. Would be refreshing to see what players rather than living in hope of what they might/might not do, I wouldn't be overly upset if it means the first two 6 nations are a bit undershelming if it's gaining experience for youngsters and building towards a rejuvenated England side.
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England World Cup Squad
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whocaresaboutthetruth
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And would you consider a new coaching set up needed to achieve this rejuvenated England?.It seems a lot of the negativity around England is based on tactics also.Do you think the coaching staff are the ones to bring about this new era?.
Rugbyfan564
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I think because of various reasons poor six nations won't be encouraged in the name of rebuidling.
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Yes, but the team is kind of evolving already though. Bringing it all together is a different matter.
Little options on the props and a couple of retirements likely - some new blood would be welcome, or at least rejuvenation of existing options. At 2 Dan's coming through with LCD likely to return. George may hang around for a year or 2.
Chessum's recently emerged in the row, Martin's on his way. Itoje not ancient. Isiekwe maybe back in frame after health issues.
Curry for 7, Earl emerged at 8 although may get overtaken by T Willis or Mercer. We won't be seeing Binny again. At 6, Lawes will move on with plenty of options depending on whether we want lock or kamikaze types.
At 9 the evolution has started. Inconclusive as yet but Youngs and Care will be done.
10's the big question mark, but there's a long term option in Smith. Ford's fine if given licence. Hope Farrell decides to call it quits post RWC.
Centres. Lawrence ought to become a mainstay and we should try to develop him to wear either shirt with equal facility. But definitely one place up for grabs. Marchant's off, Daly looks shot and we need to wean ourselves off Manu. Faz is not an answer at 12.
Back 3. Steward's young and fine but we have options in Arundell - even younger - and Watson who hopefully we can squeeze a couple more years from. If the latter 2 were our wingers for the next couple of years I wouldn't complain but there are definitely opportunities for others to emerge.
This is the point though, in successful teams others are given a chance even if they don't overtake they are given a descent oppotunity this serves to force players to improve or play well, we haven't had that at all. A sprinkling of a couple of players whilst the team has underperformed for an entire WC cycle isn't really evolving IMO, I've said it a couple of times Steward is not ok internationally unless he hugely improves which I am not sure he can enough due to his lack of pace, he has been shown up a few too many times and will become a real target when analysis is done. Laurence has done enough to be considered a good option but has he done enough to be nailed on, personally I want places earned the hard way not because they were available and the best option at the time, so let's not bother exploring others. Props is an area where I don't know of too many viable alternatives.
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I would like to see post RWC next year
1. Genge, Rodd
2. George, Dan, LCD
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4. Itoje, Martin
5. Chessum, Isiekwe
6. Pearson
7. Curry, Ludlam
8. T.Willis, Mercer
9. Mitchell, Warr, JVP
10. Ford, Smith,
11. OHC, Murley
12. Kelly,
13. Lawrence, Joesph
14. Watson/Radwan
15. Steward, Arundell
With an England A squad of say
1. McIntyre, West
2. Dolly, Blamire
3. Fasogbon, Baxter,
4. Coles
5. Tizard, L.Chessum
6. Hill, Kenningham
7. Ilione
8. CCS.
9. Quirke, Randall
10. F.Smith, Atkinson
11. Freeman, Cleaves
12. S.Atkinson, Woodward
13. Dingwall
14. Hodge,
15. Carpenter,
1. Genge, Rodd
2. George, Dan, LCD
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4. Itoje, Martin
5. Chessum, Isiekwe
6. Pearson
7. Curry, Ludlam
8. T.Willis, Mercer
9. Mitchell, Warr, JVP
10. Ford, Smith,
11. OHC, Murley
12. Kelly,
13. Lawrence, Joesph
14. Watson/Radwan
15. Steward, Arundell
With an England A squad of say
1. McIntyre, West
2. Dolly, Blamire
3. Fasogbon, Baxter,
4. Coles
5. Tizard, L.Chessum
6. Hill, Kenningham
7. Ilione
8. CCS.
9. Quirke, Randall
10. F.Smith, Atkinson
11. Freeman, Cleaves
12. S.Atkinson, Woodward
13. Dingwall
14. Hodge,
15. Carpenter,
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Steward's 22. He's got some weaknesses for sure, but he's also got some massive strengths. He's got 28 caps - by the next World Cup that could be 60+ for a player just entering his peak years at 26. By then he should have ironed out most of his weaknesses, or at least learned how to compensate for them. If a full back gets exposed to one on one situations the first question is what's gone wrong in front of him. If he's not the fastest thing on two legs pair him with wingers who are. Ideally develop a back 3 unit who play together regularly rather than chopping and changing. Most of his caps have also come in the declining Jones / early Borthwick stumbling eras - put him in the current France or Ireland teams and I reckon he'd look a totally different player.
If Arundell or whoever offers a better all round proposition then fine. Competition's great, but I don't think we've been close to seeing the best of Steward yet.
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Sounds good.
Earl presumably an oversight? Underhill a more deliberate omission?
Disagree entirely on Steward, he is fantastic in the air, what else does he offer almost everything else is a weakness imo, if he adds a little more edge to his carrying given his size fine but at the moment it's not strong enough to compensate for the lack of pace thing, positioning could help to some extent still can't substitute out and out pace, he's not a ball player either. Caps for me are not in the slightest relevant unless you believe Youngs has been deserving of all of his and has been a better player for it. Personally I'd like to see Freeman and Arundel or Carpenter (appreciate he is off to France so May now not be an option) given opportunities like Steward was afforded, it's the lack of opportunities offered unless forced that gets me, it's how you end up in some of the messes we end up in, assuming for a minute Steward does become what you hope and little opportunity is given to others what happens if he gets injured, you get to another Jamie George situation.
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I think you're being overly harsh on Steward, but we're not going to agree on that. Your wider points about unjustified caps and no Plan Bs are right though.
Point is that Steward is still on a learning curve - for context he's played something like 25 fewer pro games than Youngs has England caps. He should get better - his peak should be 4 or 5 years away. Youngs on the other hand won a lot of his caps when he'd clearly passed his peak.
I'm not saying Steward - or anyone - should be a sinecure but history tells us that the most successful teams are generally fairly mature on age and experience and bring continuity of selection. Players also change and learn new tricks with experience - BO'D and Nonu for example.
Part of the management art is succession planning to avoid cliff edges and ensure that there are decent options when a player is either out of form or simply not cutting it. One of the few benefits of the way the bench is now used.
But you also need to look at how players are performing in the context of the team and pretty much to a man we've been saying for years that hardly anyone is living up to their potential in a horribly underperforming England side.
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Can Steward actually learn to be faster or more agile though at his age? He'll have been doing sprints and agility since he was 10 years old.
Some players just don't have the physical attributes to play international rugby. For every Malins, there is another player with all the same skills but faster and stronger. I'd rather look in the premiership for FBs who can catch and have pace etc.
Some players just don't have the physical attributes to play international rugby. For every Malins, there is another player with all the same skills but faster and stronger. I'd rather look in the premiership for FBs who can catch and have pace etc.
Yep this is it, I'd take someone who is very good under the high ball without needing to be considered world class at it, but has the speed in attack and defence who could make up for being slightly inaccurate with their positioning or have a hope in hell of catching someone if and when England turn over the ball so will naturally be out of position.
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He absolutely can. Plenty can be done and apart from anything else he's listed at 107 kg and you'd think there's scope to knock a bit off there.
I totally agree with the Malins type point although I don't think ring burning pace is quite as essential at 15 as wing, although v nice to have obvs.
Look at Mike Brown. Not fast but worked hard with Allan Wells wife (look him up if you're really that young!) to get quicker. Rarely caught out of position and always made ground in attack although sometimes undid that good work by missing obvious passes.
Steward's the man in possession. To my mind others need to make a compelling case to take the shirt off him (and if he's really not up to it that should be easy). Not seeing that yet, although could live with Watson - Arundell's time may come but v far from proven even at club level while Freeman was part of an awful Saints defence. Carpenter may be one to watch.
Interesting view from May about the wingers....
www.telegraph.co.uk
The interesting bit.
"Asked to describe his point of difference as a winger, May points to his ability to chase and retrieve high balls as well as his edge defence. This would seem to be a far less glamorous skillset than the one demonstrated by Arundell's five tries against Chile, but May argues that scoring tries in space is the easy part of Test rugby for a winger.
"Of course I'd love to get the ball in space, I'd love to be scoring tries, I'd love to be doing all those things, that's the stuff that comes naturally to any winger," May said. "There's probably 15 wingers in the Premiership that if you give them space they'll finish it, you give them loose ball in the backfield and they scoop it up and off they go. That's the stuff that we do, and that's why we play the position we do.
"But there's probably only a small percentage of people who can do all the other stuff as well, and play a game, a proper Test match where you're not going to touch the ball.
"You might not touch the ball for 30 minutes, and then you're required to deal with a ball in the backfield, then you're required to draw width from your forwards, then you're required to take a high ball. That's when it's a lonely place out there and it is very challenging."
Jonny May: I’m ripping into my last Rugby World Cup, but I’ll be relieved to retire
Veteran wing determined to savour what is likely to be his England swansong, but will not miss the weight of representing his country
www.telegraph.co.uk
The interesting bit.
"Asked to describe his point of difference as a winger, May points to his ability to chase and retrieve high balls as well as his edge defence. This would seem to be a far less glamorous skillset than the one demonstrated by Arundell's five tries against Chile, but May argues that scoring tries in space is the easy part of Test rugby for a winger.
"Of course I'd love to get the ball in space, I'd love to be scoring tries, I'd love to be doing all those things, that's the stuff that comes naturally to any winger," May said. "There's probably 15 wingers in the Premiership that if you give them space they'll finish it, you give them loose ball in the backfield and they scoop it up and off they go. That's the stuff that we do, and that's why we play the position we do.
"But there's probably only a small percentage of people who can do all the other stuff as well, and play a game, a proper Test match where you're not going to touch the ball.
"You might not touch the ball for 30 minutes, and then you're required to deal with a ball in the backfield, then you're required to draw width from your forwards, then you're required to take a high ball. That's when it's a lonely place out there and it is very challenging."
That is an interesting point, personally I do A it's too early for SB to be in charge of such a big national team, B most of what he's learned is from EJ so can't really expect anything too different, C everything he demonstrated at Leicester suggests he wants to play a heavily forward dominated power game with a fair amount of kicking, at club you can find a player within the budget constraints to fit a style of play which obviously doesn't apply at International level. With that said he's been put in a role and inherited a team lacking in confidence, depth and general direction and only a short time before the WC, it would be unfair to judge him now for me something should have been put in place to determine some kind of progression if that's not met mid World Cup cycle the changes are made so there is a fair time to build something, I don't necessarily like it but the way things have transpired it's the fairest way I can think of, unfortunately that comes with its own issues, less time to start the WC cycle and immediately post WC you would assume is the best time to find a head coach so may end up limiting the market.
AngloScotsHybrid
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But the French kicking has a plan whereas England's is aimless.Watching the French game chuckling that people complained that England kicked TOO much
Like people actually think all the top teams just play fijian 7s style rugby
It's the lack of variations half the time and kicking over laps that get me, they can be a useful string to the bow but on its own is far to predictable.Watching the French game chuckling that people complained that England kicked TOO much
Like people actually think all the top teams just play fijian 7s style rugby
God I'd love to have ambition of a Mike Brown butchered clear try chance these days.
Hhhmm agree and disagree...England DO have a plan...the issue is the execution at the moment but that will improve...and the other difference is our decision making.. but again as the guys build on this....that will improve. France have 4 + years development on us
