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England vs Fiji 26th August 23

So is that England, from 1 to 33, just aren't good enough? Because I can't bring myself to believe that. I don't get to watch much of the premiership, pro 14, etc, but what I do see of English players is often really good. There's definitely talent. Is the problem lack of leadership, coaching talent? It just feels like, if we had the right person at the helm, things could turn around fast (not in time for this WC mind). Or am I just clutching desperately at straws? I mean, many of the players were part of the team that took the ABs to pieces 4 years ago, so they've got it in them.
 
ageingback23 said:
So is that England, from 1 to 33, just aren't good enough? Because I can't bring myself to believe that. I don't get to watch much of the premiership, pro 14, etc, but what I do see of English players is often really good. There's definitely talent. Is the problem lack of leadership, coaching talent? It just feels like, if we had the right person at the helm, things could turn around fast (not in time for this WC mind). Or am I just clutching desperately at straws? I mean, many of the players were part of the team that took the ABs to pieces 4 years ago, so they've got it in them.
Click to expand...
That was four years ago and that's part of the problem. We played Argentina who are miles better now. Avoided France who are miles better now. Then Australia who have been in decline for several years. Even the AB's were in a slump by there standards losing some all time greats after 2015. You can see how from the above that nearly all the tier 1 teams we played have improved or evolved.

England's best players had some degree of form and that's gone. Plus we are still reliant on props who are either ok in the scrum or ok in the loose. Not good at both. The problems from 2019 still remain no world class props and centres, the constant hope Manu hits his 2012 form. The tactics are wrong and out dated and the current players are either out of form or just no longer good enough. Confidence is low and there's a real lack of coercion.

To win a world cup i think they say you need 3/4 world class players who'd get into a world xv. So arguably that's SA, Ireland, France, AB's. England have none, we have a few with potential but the cupboard is pretty empty. Maybe, just maybe it'll click and some will regain form. We can but hope, but on current showing with the lack of form and confidence it's a big maybe....
 
Saintjay said:
To win a world cup i think they say you need 3/4 world class players who'd get into a world xv.
Click to expand...
Key positions are your half backs, you need Wilkinson, Dawson, Carter, du Preez, Smith, de Clerk

You look at 2015 with the closest final and you have none of those names.

Youngs/Farrell/Ford/Smith - None of those guys scream world cup winners in the last 4 years essentially since the NZ semi-final which was probably the last great England performance.
 
Saintjay said:
That was four years ago and that's part of the problem. We played Argentina who are miles better now. Avoided France who are miles better now. Then Australia who have been in decline for several years. Even the AB's were in a slump by there standards losing some all time greats after 2015. You can see how from the above that nearly all the tier 1 teams we played have improved or evolved.

England's best players had some degree of form and that's gone. Plus we are still reliant on props who are either ok in the scrum or ok in the loose. Not good at both. The problems from 2019 still remain no world class props and centres, the constant hope Manu hits his 2012 form. The tactics are wrong and out dated and the current players are either out of form or just no longer good enough. Confidence is low and there's a real lack of coercion.

To win a world cup i think they say you need 3/4 world class players who'd get into a world xv. So arguably that's SA, Ireland, France, AB's. England have none, we have a few with potential but the cupboard is pretty empty. Maybe, just maybe it'll click and some will regain form. We can but hope, but on current showing with the lack of form and confidence it's a big maybe....
Click to expand...
Honest the semi final 4 years ago was probably the worst thing for England. It gave people hope Jones did have a master plan and yet it turned out to be the exception.
 
ncurd said:
Key positions are your half backs, you need Wilkinson, Dawson, Carter, du Preez, Smith, de Clerk

You look at 2015 with the closest final and you have none of those names.

Youngs/Farrell/Ford/Smith - None of those guys scream world cup winners in the last 4 years essentially since the NZ semi-final which was probably the last great England performance.
Click to expand...

Stephen Donald and Cruden honestly didn't scream RWC winners TBF
 
Reiser99 said:
Honest the semi final 4 years ago was probably the worst thing for England. It gave people hope Jones did have a master plan and yet it turned out to be the exception.
Click to expand...

Disagree for me there will always be a question mark over this RWC with Eddie.

Sure it's most likely would've been a failure but still feel it could have been a successful one tbh
 
AngloScotsHybrid said:
Im sorry but you are delusional. Eddie was making a complete **** up of it. His selections were bizarre and his attitude did nothing for team unity.
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I mean how am I being delusional though

Was his selections that bizarre on paper? His biggest fault was sticking too much to his failing but trusted old guard and failing to build depth. Which is a fault for the majority of coaches who have been in a job long term honestly.
But like what was actually bizarre?

His attitude did stink I won't deny that, it's always kinda stunk it's who he is.

But I still feel that the RFU have done more damage getting him gone, splashing money on an inexperience coaching setup who had 6 months for a rwc, than just keeping him till the end of his tenure and see how the dice landed. If it failed Eddie head would've been on the plate and if he had succeeded English rugby would be in a good spot.

Instead England failing could have serious implications for a very young and promising coaching team. In all reality Eddie got sacked when he did because the people in charge of the rfu didn't want to risk having to fall on their sword. Borthwick getting the job was more them safeguarding themselves for another 4 years.

I feel that when it comes to Eddie jones people get weirdly personal about it.
 
Pieter Steph du Teague said:
Malins?
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Malins could do it, but he plays more as an auxilerry playmaker from the wing at sarries not really fitting in at 15 much at all this season. With Goode playing the second primary playmaker with lozowski sometimes going as well from centre, all in all just giving a ton of options to make the attack less predictable. With a 10 like farrell who doesnt do much with his feet etc the more uncertainty the better.

But yeah thinking about it either him or daly would be the choice since both play in a somewhat playmaking capacity at club level with experience at FB.
 
He played Tuilagi on the wing, he picked George Furbank at fullback against France, he picked a midfield of Smith, Farrell and Slade in more than one game: 3 ball players and no strike runners. He ditched Ollie Lawrence after one game. He kept picking Mako Vunipola at loosehead against south africa when everyone knows you have to pick your strongest scrummagers against south africa. He didn't give any hookers game time apart from George and Cowan-Dickie.
He selected the Saracens players like Billy Vunipola when Saracens were relegated and not playing many games, and then when Saracens were back in the premiership he dropped Vunipola. Totally backwards!
Need I go on?
 
higgik said:
Or Malins from in the squad, but even better could gave been Slade.
He has all the skills.
I think using the Sarries format of playmaker at 10 and 15 would work.
Click to expand...
Agree, overlooked malins, more because I think having him as another playmaking option on the wing like he does for sarries helps if you can get that 10/15 axis right. But yeah, we dont have the external players for it so you are correct malins is probably the actual best bet to fill it in the squad.
 
ageingback23 said:
So is that England, from 1 to 33, just aren't good enough? Because I can't bring myself to believe that. I don't get to watch much of the premiership, pro 14, etc, but what I do see of English players is often really good. There's definitely talent. Is the problem lack of leadership, coaching talent? It just feels like, if we had the right person at the helm, things could turn around fast (not in time for this WC mind). Or am I just clutching desperately at straws? I mean, many of the players were part of the team that took the ABs to pieces 4 years ago, so they've got it in them.
Click to expand...
I disagree, although some on the forum strongly agree with this sentiment of the player base just not being there. The Prem is showing how you play with this player base, but england coaches seem intent on trying to force this ideal style of english rugby fromovera decade ago when the player base did suit it.

Some of these players are class, but are being told to play in a system that is setting them up for failure while others just arent picked on form.

Would england be winning a world cup with the right system? most certainly not, but it should sure as hell look better than this and the thought of a group stage exit in this half of the draw should be unimmaginable.

At international level you have to adapt to your player base and mitigate their limitations, eddie and now steve seem hell bent on running their system despite it highlights a lot of key players glaring weaknesses.

As was the case with eddie, alot of these problems could be solved by designing a system to your player base and stop trying to force square pegs in round holes.
 
Need to see a lot of improvement in this. I know they can win, but it's the structure and the attitude that concerns me.
 
Right now I'm watching NZ getting pumped by SA in the knowledge that they'd still destroy us. They probably wouldn't even need 15.
 

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