England vs Fiji 26th August 23

[Ragey Erasmus]

3...6...9...

Don't be ridiculous, they won't get to 9.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think the prem does have enough players to enable you to pick any style you want if you select the right players but they won't all be experienced and the 'works class' English players that may exist in the prem might not suit that style.

But SB doesn't seem to have a plan other than just to kick the ball away and we definitely haven't selected a kicking forward style of squad even if kicking should mean set piece gameplan (which he hasn't done).

 

[Zed]

I think England might put a few points on Fiji, 3/4 tries, put everyone at easy, then revert to type when it comes to the World Cup.

 

[Zed]

I don't understand the Smith to 15 thing. Ok there is the attacking game from 15, kinda wonder what we gain from that as you can bet the rest of the team will not be on the same wavelength to take advantage of that. One of the biggest criticisms of Daly at 15 was how poor he was under the high ball and as a last defender. Smith isn't particularly big, surely he'll just be targeted by kicks? He also won't have the instinctive positioning so will likely also be out of position for those kicks.

I don't see any way it ends in anything except Smith being set up to fail in the same way Bergamasco was when he played 9. There is nothing to suggest he can do the role at international level. We also have people whinging about playing players out of position and now we are proposing moving our current 15 to 12, our 10 to 15, our 7 to 8, our 12 to 13...

I mentioned moving Smith to FB in an another thread, I'm guessing Steve Borthwick read my post. I think he'd bring a lot into the attack, especially running from deep. That's where players like Freddie Steward and Mike Brown fall short. Brown would always be caught, could never get past the first defender. Smith can do that. Plus hitting the line hard at pace in phase play, he's going to be hard to pull down. Steward looks like a backrow he's inserted himself into the back line. Smith might not be great under the high ball, but I'd still play him there. Or Arundell. Give them 4, 5 games+.

 

[SG59_]

Right now I'm watching NZ getting pumped by SA in the knowledge that they'd still destroy us. They probably wouldn't even need 15.

This is why SA beating Wales so easily didn't bother me. SA are on another level right now and I don't see England doing much better against them.

 

[Grizwald]

I mentioned moving Smith to FB in an another thread, I'm guessing Steve Borthwick read my post. I think he'd bring a lot into the attack, especially running from deep. That's where players like Freddie Steward and Mike Brown fall short. Brown would always be caught, could never get past the first defender. Smith can do that. Plus hitting the line hard at pace in phase play, he's going to be hard to pull down. Steward looks like a backrow he's inserted himself into the back line. Smith might not be great under the high ball, but I'd still play him there. Or Arundell. Give them 4, 5 games+.

I remember Brown differently, recall him being wirey and strong at least beating the first man. Sure he worked a lot with a sprint coach to bring that side of his game on. Steward could do with the same, he's a big unit so with a bit more pace he could be used effectively, have seen a couple of glimpses of him breaking the gain line in the SB era.

 

[BPM]

Brown almost always beat the first defender. His problem was decision making. He very rarely passed which tended to lead to him taking on too much and being isolated or at least forcing others to bail him out when a pass would have been the better option.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Brown would always be caught, could never get past the first defender.

Now this is just incorrect. Sure he slowed down a bit as he got older (who doesn't) but prime Brown could never get stopped by the first defender. One of the slipperiest runners I've ever seen.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

.

Instead England failing could have serious implications for a very young and promising coaching team. In all reality Eddie got sacked when he did because the people in charge of the rfu didn't want to risk having to fall on their sword. Borthwick getting the job was more them safeguarding themselves for another 4 years.

Yes, I agree with that.

The decision to remove Jones was, in itself, the right one with the caveat that the replacement had to have the credentials to make things better. And most of us are taking no pleasure in having our initial scepticism about Borthwick and his chosen team seemingly confirmed.

Borthwick and his team also take some of the blame though - just because you're offered a job you don't have to take it, tempting as the status, huge cheque and all that comes with it undoubtedly is. Everyone has a ceiling, and in the dead of night, Borthwick etc must have admitted to themselves that this was a massive step up for them. Self confidence is great until it's misplaced.

Borthwick's big mistake though has been surrounding himself with such a raw coaching team. Familiar, yes, but not the right men for the job at this time. And although you won't hear it in public, they simply won't have the players' respect.

The mad draw means that only one half decent performance could make the RWC look OK and mask a whole lot. Failure to get out of the group is game over for SB, otherwise much more appropriate to see where we really are after the 6N.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Brown would always be caught, could never get past the first defender.

Yeah, this is just wrong.

On the same kind of vibe as "tuilagi could never be powerful in contact", "may was always slow" or "Ben Young's could always get the ball away quickly"

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Steward could be WC if he continues to improve on his basics. He may, he may not. But I'd really like to know if he's any better than someone like loader who's got a lot more to his game already.

Thinking about sarries playmakers conversation. They have Farrell surrounded by a firm option at 12 for contact, and playmakers at 13, 15 and arguably one wing sometimes both with Malins and Daly.

Where as in England don't have that many, especially without Slade at 13 (although he's failed to flatter there).

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Brown almost always beat the first defender. His problem was decision making. He very rarely passed which tended to lead to him taking on too much and being isolated or at least forcing others to bail him out when a pass would have been the better option.

It was particularly bad with May on the wing. I always got the vibe that there was some bad feeling between those two as Brown practically never passed to May when he had clear grass ahead of him (and when he was still one of the fastest wingers in the world). Always got the impression it was Brown hated May more than the reverse. He seemed much more willing to pass with a different winger there.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It was particularly bad with May on the wing. I always got the vibe that there was some bad feeling between those two as Brown practically never passed to May when he had clear grass ahead of him (and when he was still one of the fastest wingers in the world). Always got the impression it was Brown hated May more than the reverse. He seemed much more willing to pass with a different winger there.

They clashed under the high ball on more than one occasion as well
Very odd dynamic that theoretically should've been a very very good partnership

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

England by 10

Only 2x tries in the match

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

9/2 Fiji to win, kinda tempted...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

As long as we kick for 1000m we are guaranteed to smash Fiji, it's science.

 

[Reiser99]

England by 10

Only 2x tries in the match

So England 24 Fiji 14? I'm sure we can manage 8 penalties.

 

[higgik]

Now this is just incorrect. Sure he slowed down a bit as he got older (who doesn't) but prime Brown could never get stopped by the first defender. One of the slipperiest runners I've ever seen.

And strong enough to break tackles.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Heavens just opened in the Midlands, thunder and lightning the lot, looks like it'll hit Twickenham at 3pm - that'll do wonders for our handling!

 

[higgik]

Steward could be WC if he continues to improve on his basics. He may, he may not. But I'd really like to know if he's any better than someone like loader who's got a lot more to his game already.

Thinking about sarries playmakers conversation. They have Farrell surrounded by a firm option at 12 for contact, and playmakers at 13, 15 and arguably one wing sometimes both with Malins and Daly.

Where as in England don't have that many, especially without Slade at 13 (although he's failed to flatter there).

Farrell has always looked better, when he has someone else scanning the field and calling plays.
Whereas Smith and Ford are the olay callers for their clubs.
That is why picking the 3 never makes sense as the skill set of the other backs depends on the 10.