England vs Fiji 26th August 23

[Which Tyler]

We also have people whinging about playing players out of position and now we are proposing moving our current 15 to 12, our 10 to 15, our 7 to 8, our 12 to 13...

Wait, what?
We have a 12?

 

[Booboobang]

I don't understand the Smith to 15 thing. Ok there is the attacking game from 15, kinda wonder what we gain from that as you can bet the rest of the team will not be on the same wavelength to take advantage of that. One of the biggest criticisms of Daly at 15 was how poor he was under the high ball and as a last defender. Smith isn't particularly big, surely he'll just be targeted by kicks? He also won't have the instinctive positioning so will likely also be out of position for those kicks.

I don't see any way it ends in anything except Smith being set up to fail in the same way Bergamasco was when he played 9. There is nothing to suggest he can do the role at international level. We also have people whinging about playing players out of position and now we are proposing moving our current 15 to 12, our 10 to 15, our 7 to 8, our 12 to 13...

It adds a second primary playmaker to the line with 15 being the current position most good teams like to use for that role. That theory is sound and has a lot of merit. Its part of the reason saracens, AB's, ireland, france etc etc etc look so deadly Part of the reason we look so turgid is predictability with everything operating primarily through the 10 and going through the same pattern. a secondary playmaker would somewhat help that, currently we have FH, to limited playmaker to limited playmaker to limited playmaker when talking about non contact. Basically most good teams now use their 15 like they used to use their 12 in attacking phases.

Stewart isnt that, and currently cant do that, end of the world? no, hopefully he develops that over time and you just have to find that role somewhere else in the meantime, problem is that would normally be 12 and thats a laugh when looking at our current squad. But we wont be able to keep up on attack with stewart in the lineup unless we find it somewhere.

Now on to smith, he has the skillset for it, but is it the best option considering he has never done it and not being tested on defense and under the high ball? No, obviously not. Is this new role something that should be done on the eve of a world cup? Again obviously not, New zealand moved Barret years ago and kept with it as well as him showing competency on defense and under a high ball at club level.

Should this have been thought about when selecting the squad? Obviously, and should of been planned for, if steward it your guy mitigate for his weakness or select a fullback that can playmake.

I have a morbid curiosity about smith at 15 because it could be magic, but in reality its a massive risk and if you are going with this plan Daly is probably the best fit as a 15 in the current squad.

Also, we dont have a 12 to be playing at 13. We have 4 13's.

This whole thing comes down to attrocious squad planning and selction and then trying to fit square pegs into round holes when the limitations of the players selected, obvious to anyone watching, lead to the team being unable to move the ball and attack at international level.

Square pegs, round holes, poor planning. The story of Borthwicks tenure to date.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd say Manu is definitely a 12 now,
He's not played 13 at club level since 2020, and his split of 13 vs 12 is 54% vs 44% of his career playtime (the other 2% is wing)

 

[ageingback23]

It adds a second primary playmaker to the line with 15 being the current position most good teams like to use for that role. That theory is sound and has a lot of merit. Its part of the reason saracens, AB's, ireland, france etc etc etc look so deadly Part of the reason we look so turgid is predictability with everything operating primarily through the 10 and going through the same pattern. a secondary playmaker would somewhat help that, currently we have FH, to limited playmaker to limited playmaker to limited playmaker when talking about non contact. Basically most good teams now use their 15 like they used to use their 12 in attacking phases.

Stewart isnt that, and currently cant do that, end of the world? no, hopefully he develops that over time and you just have to find that role somewhere else in the meantime, problem is that would normally be 12 and thats a laugh when looking at our current squad. But we wont be able to keep up on attack with stewart in the lineup unless we find it somewhere.

Now on to smith, he has the skillset for it, but is it the best option considering he has never done it and not being tested on defense and under the high ball? No, obviously not. Is this new role something that should be done on the eve of a world cup? Again obviously not, New zealand moved Barret years ago and kept with it as well as him showing competency on defense and under a high ball at club level.

Should this have been thought about when selecting the squad? Obviously, and should of been planned for, if steward it your guy mitigate for his weakness or select a fullback that can playmake.

I have a morbid curiosity about smith at 15 because it could be magic, but in reality its a massive risk and if you are going with this plan Daly is probably the best fit as a 15 in the current squad.

Also, we dont have a 12 to be playing at 13. We have 4 13's.

This whole thing comes down to attrocious squad planning and selction and then trying to fit square pegs into round holes when the limitations of the players selected, obvious to anyone watching, lead to the team being unable to move the ball and attack at international level.

Square pegs, round holes, poor planning. The story of Borthwicks tenure to date.

Agree with much of this, and think Daly would be playing fullback were he now not injured, so, due to the poor squad selection you mention, Smith is the only lad left to fill the role of playmaking 15, against what will no doubt be a vicious Fijian team scenting blood in the water. Chances of Smith getting absolutely nobbled? Pretty high I reckon, but maybe that's Borthwicks plan. Smith gets injured, can't play in the WC, he then can get back to playing dirge pointless kick chase with the excuse that he has no other option. Heard a rumour that Smith was playing 15 in practice this week, made an amazing break and was blown up by SB who said something like "big games can't be won playing like that". So the question is, why bother having a playmaking 15, if you aren't going to let them play?
Watson out, May in. Arundell out, JVP out. Things look bleak. I could feel better about it all if the players looked like there was any fight in them, some sparkle in the eyes, desire to win, but they look beaten before the whistle has even blown to start the match. I hope for Lawes sake that Saturdays game is better. I rate him and think he deserves a decent 100th cap.

As for the WC, we all better start having a second in mind, what's yours going to be?…

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Agree with much of this, and think Daly would be playing fullback were he now not injured, so, due to the poor squad selection you mention, Smith is the only lad left to fill the role of playmaking 15

Malins?

 

[higgik]

It adds a second primary playmaker to the line with 15 being the current position most good teams like to use for that role. That theory is sound and has a lot of merit. Its part of the reason saracens, AB's, ireland, france etc etc etc look so deadly Part of the reason we look so turgid is predictability with everything operating primarily through the 10 and going through the same pattern. a secondary playmaker would somewhat help that, currently we have FH, to limited playmaker to limited playmaker to limited playmaker when talking about non contact. Basically most good teams now use their 15 like they used to use their 12 in attacking phases.

Stewart isnt that, and currently cant do that, end of the world? no, hopefully he develops that over time and you just have to find that role somewhere else in the meantime, problem is that would normally be 12 and thats a laugh when looking at our current squad. But we wont be able to keep up on attack with stewart in the lineup unless we find it somewhere.

Now on to smith, he has the skillset for it, but is it the best option considering he has never done it and not being tested on defense and under the high ball? No, obviously not. Is this new role something that should be done on the eve of a world cup? Again obviously not, New zealand moved Barret years ago and kept with it as well as him showing competency on defense and under a high ball at club level.

Should this have been thought about when selecting the squad? Obviously, and should of been planned for, if steward it your guy mitigate for his weakness or select a fullback that can playmake.

I have a morbid curiosity about smith at 15 because it could be magic, but in reality its a massive risk and if you are going with this plan Daly is probably the best fit as a 15 in the current squad.

Or Malins from in the squad, but even better could gave been Slade.
He has all the skills.
I think using the Sarries format of playmaker at 10 and 15 would work.

 

[higgik]

Malins?

Exactly, plays regularly on wing and has moved to Bristol explicitly to play 15.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

All this talk about full backs and playmakers is great.

But, irrespective of gameplan, unless and until we field a forward pack that plays with much higher intensity and aggression and secures much faster ball (among other things) most of the rest of it is moot.

George is a great example of the problem. Unchallenged for his shirt and a good solid reliable player. But in 2017 he was the Lions starter, today he wouldn't make the tour. Just look at what the likes of Sheehan can do - the world has moved on while we haven't.

Going back to the back 3, Ireland use their wings in a different way to many and they're not out and out sprinters. Curious how Hansen and Lowe would compare to Daly and Malins in a foot race.

 

[higgik]

All this talk about full backs and playmakers is great.

But, irrespective of gameplan, unless and until we field a forward pack that plays with much higher intensity and aggression and secures much faster ball (among other things) most of the rest of it is moot.

George is a great example of the problem. Unchallenged for his shirt and a good solid reliable player. But in 2017 he was the Lions starter, today he wouldn't make the tour. Just look at what the likes of Sheehan can do - the world has moved on while we haven't.

Going back to the back 3, Ireland use their wings in a different way to many and they're not out and out sprinters. Curious how Hansen and Lowe would compare to Daly and Malins in a foot race.

Ireland use intelligent wingers who attack the line with great angles and, in Lowe good power.
Malins and Daly do that for Sarries, but their main task is to put pressure on the catcher.
The major difference is what you mention earlier.
Ireland kick from a position of stability, i.e. it is when they want to, rather than England who kick to rule.
Therefore, the Irish chase is organised to create a favourable outcome, whereas England are hoping to get a mistake, rather than force the issue.

This is why I like converting Steward to 12. Then the kick chase could become an attacking weapon, as our best aerial player is in the frontline, alongside another good player in Marchant.
Playing Freeman and Murley on the wings would give the power and pace on wing, with Malins as 2nd playmaker at 15. He could add an extra dimension to Smith.

His tactical control of the back 3, could create great running lines that Smith would lap up and exoloit.

But, as you say, in order for this to happen we need a pack that can give them the ball on our terms.

 

[Jashay]

I reckon LCD might have taken the shirt from George if not for injuries. I guess I agree in principle, though; I reckon we've tried at least half a dozen hookers that average three games each. And not even full games! Poor old Dunn with less than a quarter of a game to show for his three caps.

Edit: 7 Hookers, according to a bit of googling. Taylor (1 cap), Singleton (4 caps), Langdon (2 caps), Dunn (3 caps), Blamire (7 caps), Dolly (1 cap), Dan (1 cap). We've also had Barbeary in the squad and Walker is there now.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think George is half as washed as what's being implied tbh

Though our refusal to find out next choice over EJ (and now SB)s tenure is frustrating - guys getting single digit minutes of game time off the bench, at maximum
Had the same issue with 9 for a looooong time too

 

[higgik]

I don't think George is half as washed as what's being implied tbh

Though our refusal to find out next choice over EJ (and now SB)s tenure is frustrating - guys getting single digit minutes of game time off the bench, at maximum
Had the same issue with 9 for a looooong time too

True, he is getting pounded in rhe scrum because of the lack of power from the 2 props and the row.

As we have said on this forum, a stable platform is the first thing we need.
Marler needs to start with Cole, then bring on Genge and Sinckler, (who looked better off the bench last week).

Obviously, Martin and Chessum are carrying quite injuries, but they are bigger.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

.

I don't think George is half as washed as what's being implied tbh

He's probably the player we'd miss most if he went down which is a more a reflection on the other options.

He's fine, solid, reliable, does the basics etc and if he was our worst player we'd be in pretty good shape. I guess my point is that at one time he was one of the very best in the world, but doesn't have that status any more. If we make it to the semis he turns 33 during our tournament - it's an exceptional player that isn't on the wane by then, even if fairly slowly.

 

[Jashay]

True, he is getting pounded in rhe scrum because of the lack of power from the 2 props and the row.

As we have said on this forum, a stable platform is the first thing we need.
Marler needs to start with Cole, then bring on Genge and Sinckler, (who looked better off the bench last week).

Obviously, Martin and Chessum are carrying quite injuries, but they are bigger.

I've got a lot of respect for Cole, and he's certainly a good scrummager, but in open play he might as well be a static bollard. If he's the answer at tighthead that's pretty damning with regards to English tightheads.

I'm a fan of Heyes myself, but I understand it's tricky to justify picking him over Cole when his own club doesn't!

 

[ageingback23]

I always forget about Malins. I think it's because I really don't rate him, certainly not at international level. He just seems so ponderous and not much better than Steward is with ball in hand. I certainly can't see him performing any kind of magic from 15, where as Daly and the sadly absent Slade would be a different story. The selection of Smith at fullback also seems to suggest that SB also has no faith in Malins at 15, as I don't believe he's injured.

Malins?

 

[ageingback23]

Ireland use intelligent wingers who attack the line with great angles and, in Lowe good power.
Malins and Daly do that for Sarries, but their main task is to put pressure on the catcher.
The major difference is what you mention earlier.
Ireland kick from a position of stability, i.e. it is when they want to, rather than England who kick to rule.
Therefore, the Irish chase is organised to create a favourable outcome, whereas England are hoping to get a mistake, rather than force the issue.

This is why I like converting Steward to 12. Then the kick chase could become an attacking weapon, as our best aerial player is in the frontline, alongside another good player in Marchant.
Playing Freeman and Murley on the wings would give the power and pace on wing, with Malins as 2nd playmaker at 15. He could add an extra dimension to Smith.

His tactical control of the back 3, could create great running lines that Smith would lap up and exoloit.

But, as you say, in order for this to happen we need a pack that can give them the ball on our terms.

I just don't see how playing Steward at 12 helps anything. He's got the turning circle of a barge, doesn't have quick feet, isn't much cop at the line, I've not seen any evidence of anything other than average hands, and he certainly doesn't have pace. Yes he's tall and good in the air, and has been relatively solid at full back so far, but put him at 12 and you have only one option and game plan. Kick chase. Which we just aren't very good at. So why keep bloody doing it. If we could just up the pace of things, use the likes of Earl, Genge, Manu etc to draw defences in, we've got people like Marchant who can slip through the gaps, get the wings to track him through and be ready to take the offload and suddenly we're on the front foot, opposition defence start to splinter, and you've got something to work with. Fords got a good rugby brain, as has Smith, but they need something to exploit. Goofing up in the air on the hope you can regather, or get a knock on and pray the forwards can do the job at scrum time, well that's just not a WC winning strategy.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I've got a lot of respect for Cole, and he's certainly a good scrummager, but in open play he might as well be a static bollard. If he's the answer at tighthead that's pretty damning with regards to English tightheads.

I'm a fan of Heyes myself, but I understand it's tricky to justify picking him over Cole when his own club doesn't!

Cole is same level as Francis. Dead weight. Both in for their perceived strength in the scrum and don't even excel in that area anymore.

 

[Saintjay]

I just don't see how playing Steward at 12 helps anything. He's got the turning circle of a barge, doesn't have quick feet, isn't much cop at the line, I've not seen any evidence of anything other than average hands, and he certainly doesn't have pace. Yes he's tall and good in the air, and has been relatively solid at full back so far, but put him at 12 and you have only one option and game plan. Kick chase. Which we just aren't very good at. So why keep bloody doing it. If we could just up the pace of things, use the likes of Earl, Genge, Manu etc to draw defences in, we've got people like Marchant who can slip through the gaps, get the wings to track him through and be ready to take the offload and suddenly we're on the front foot, opposition defence start to splinter, and you've got something to work with. Fords got a good rugby brain, as has Smith, but they need something to exploit. Goofing up in the air on the hope you can regather, or get a knock on and pray the forwards can do the job at scrum time, well that's just not a WC winning strategy.

It was a winning strategy in 2019 if you have the pack. Rugby has evolved. How Borthwick can't (won't) recognise that we simply don't have the pack to do it is beyond me.

There is talk of England trying to stay in the fight, keep it tight till the last twenty then try and cut loose. Hence why we are only playing rugby when the games getting away from us at the moment. Sadly i think currently with this squad the ship will be sunk before the 60min mark. We are getting blown out of the water well before then.

Not convinced it is all down to Eddie. You can't polish a turd or magic up some world class props and centres. We just haven't had them for a number of years and maybe not for a few more.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

The selection of Smith at fullback also seems to suggest that SB also has no faith in Malins at 15, as I don't believe he's injured.

Eh? When has Borthwick selected Smith at 15?

 

[TopTen2003]

All this talk about full backs and playmakers is great.

But, irrespective of gameplan, unless and until we field a forward pack that plays with much higher intensity and aggression and secures much faster ball (among other things) most of the rest of it is moot.

George is a great example of the problem. Unchallenged for his shirt and a good solid reliable player. But in 2017 he was the Lions starter, today he wouldn't make the tour. Just look at what the likes of Sheehan can do - the world has moved on while we haven't.

Going back to the back 3, Ireland use their wings in a different way to many and they're not out and out sprinters. Curious how Hansen and Lowe would compare to Daly and Malins in a foot race.

Yeah I agree with this one - George isn't lacking effort but we're not seeing the impact that the best hookers in the world can make. I'd be delighted to see Dan have a good game tomorrow in the loose and be somewhere close to reliable on the line out- I think that's what our World Cup campaign is going to need- a couple of unfancied players bursting through and changing the dynamic.