England v South Africa - 26/11/2022 - KO 4.30 GMT

[TRF_Olyy]

George Martin still developing aswell...

I reckon he'd be wasted under EJ, but definitely one who I think will feature under his replacement

 

[Geordie]

I reckon he'd be wasted under EJ, but definitely one who I think will feature under his replacement

I see he's at lock today...

 

[McTallshort]

The southafrican pack would destroy any england selection, not one of our props achieved parity,our locks under powered and our back row were tied in. You can't win test matches like that

This. Forget the Farrell's, Smiths and Young's of this world unless the pack is sorted out the backline is irrelevant. I don't remember ever seeing an English pack that badly manhandled at Twickenham since the dark days of Andy Robinson

 

[General Melchett]

You see, I just don't see that, or even how the thought process comes around (apart from getting the final badly wrong)
He had a good first year in charge.
Then he had a good 2nd year in charge.
Then he told us that he was sacrificing his 3rd year, in order to peak in his 4th year - which is exactly what happened, hell the details of how he was going to sacrifice 2018 rang precisely true with how we played in 2018. I just can't write off "what he told us in advance came true" as "a purple patch which happened to coincide"...

So you're saying he's only had one bad year (2018)? Seems like more than that to me.
What has he prophesied for next year? The proof will be in the pudding at the 6N and RWC but the signs don't look good and he has an embarassement of riches at his disposal - more than any other home nations head coach.

 

[Which Tyler]

So you're saying he's only had one bad year (2018)? Seems like more than that to me.

No. That's a complete straw man.
I'm saying that "Yes he had a good first year or so in charge but has been living off the back of a purple patch which happened to coincide with the last RWC and even then he got the final badly wrong" isn't accurate.
I believe (with evidence) that in his first 5 years in charge, he had 1 bad year, and that in the last 2 years in charge, he's had 2 bad years - but the quote I was addressing claimed he had 1 good year, and then fluked a good RWC - which is factually incorrect.

What has he prophesied for next year?

I don't know; I'm not an RFU higher-up; and I don't recall him commenting on his intentions for 2022-23 (which doesn't mean that he hasn't, just that I don't recall him doing so)

 

[Crash Hamster]

I don't see the necessity of being shite for the last couple of 6N and this group of Autumn internationals in order to magically improve for the RWC. It's not even as if he's done lots of headless experimentation like Pivac did.

England have a huge player pool, a lot of talent at the moment and a lot of money. A second string side should be capable of better performances than the first choices have provided. He does strange things, like start Mako Scrumpenipola against the Boks. No-one thought it would work and it didn't. His much-vaunted three lineout options bombed two vital lineouts.

Tl;dr: I don't see what value Jones adds. England should be a top 4 in the world side, all the time. Quite possibly top 1 or 2 at the moment. We're not.

 

[LIONSxv]

The southafrican pack would destroy any england selection, not one of our props achieved parity,our locks under powered and our back row were tied in. You can't win test matches like that

I agree, stupidity trying to go toe to toe with them in the power stakes and make it a set piece game.
You wouldn't for example see Ireland try to do this. Ire would would move them around the park and beat them with fitness and tactics. They would kick to the corners and get big men constantly turning. The high bomb simply doesn't have the same effect.

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't see the necessity of being shite for the last couple of 6N and this group of Autumn internationals in order to magically improve for the RWC.

Has anyone suggested that?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You see, I just don't see that, or even how the thought process comes around (apart from getting the final badly wrong)
He had a good first year in charge.
Then he had a good 2nd year in charge.
Then he told us that he was sacrificing his 3rd year, in order to peak in his 4th year - which is exactly what happened, hell the details of how he was going to sacrifice 2018 rang precisely true with how we played in 2018. I just can't write off "what he told us in advance came true" as "a purple patch which happened to coincide"...

Slightly selective memory, we won a lot in his 2nd year but I very well recall the topics were along the lines of "yes we are still scraping wins but our performances are dropping and we are relying on winning the the dying seconds too often." 2018 was where it went bad but the trend started in 2017 and many of us commented on it. He did not say he was sacrificing 2017 at the time at all. Also we aren't talking just poor seasons with Jones, we are talking setting records for worst ever performances now with Jones. This isn't a dip, this is us scraping the lowest levels of performance we have had since rugby went professional. Even if he turns it around, in no other sport ever do you go in to a major tournament by putting in your worst performances on record. Nowhere. It's not a thing. There is peaking but peaking does not involve hitting the lowest lows ever in the year before.

This isn't some grand tactic, this is him ******* it up and relying on the fact it turned around before and promises of great things as justification. There is no excuse for our defensive shape to be so poor, no excuse for our attack to be utterly non existent, no excuse for mucking up set pieces, consistently some of the worst discipline in the world, playing players consistently out of position, hamstringing the side by no selecting on form, intentionally selecting players who we know will not be able to perform certain roles come WC time (eg mako will never be a solid scrummager). These aren't testing things out, this is a repeated trend of absolute failures. How does us throwing away the largest lead in 6N history to the Scots help us build for the WC? Getting the first ever negative points difference for England in 6N history? Our heaviest ever points conceded to Scotland, France and Wales all occurring on his watch? This is simply not a tactic and it stinks worse than the Schmidt "keeping his cards hidden" nonsense we used to hear. At least Ireland were still decent under Schmidt at that time, England now are an absolute joke and another 5th in the 6N seems likely. How is that solid ground to go into the WC?

 

[Crash Hamster]

Has anyone suggested that?

Bloke called Jones, I think. At least by his actions.

 

[Which Tyler]

Slightly selective memory

Or I have a different opinion to you? No particular need to be rude though.

we won a lot in his 2nd year but I very well recall the topics were along the lines of "yes we are still scraping wins but our performances are dropping and we are relying on winning the the dying seconds too often."

Yes, people said that, that doesn't mean that everyone was in agreement. Wins are wins. 2017 was still England 4th most successfull season in history; beaten only by 1992, 2003 and 2016

He did not say he was sacrificing 2017 at the time at all.

I never said he did; tough to call a 11:0:1 season as a sacrifice for... anything at all, given that it's an outright victory.

Also we aren't talking just poor seasons with Jones, we are talking setting records for worst ever performances now with Jones.

And he accuses me of selective memory.

This isn't a dip, this is us scraping the lowest levels of performance we have had since rugby went professional.

And he accuses me of selective memory.

Even if he turns it around, in no other sport ever do you go in to a major tournament by putting in your worst performances on record. Nowhere. It's not a thing. There is peaking but peaking does not involve hitting the lowest lows ever in the year before.

This isn't some grand tactic, this is him ******* it up and relying on the fact it turned around before and promises of great things as justification. There is no excuse for our defensive shape to be so poor, no excuse for our attack to be utterly non existent, no excuse for mucking up set pieces, consistently some of the worst discipline in the world, playing players consistently out of position, hamstringing the side by no selecting on form, intentionally selecting players who we know will not be able to perform certain roles come WC time (eg mako will never be a solid scrummager). These aren't testing things out, this is a repeated trend of absolute failures. How does us throwing away the largest lead in 6N history to the Scots help us build for the WC? Getting the first ever negative points difference for England in 6N history? Our heaviest ever points conceded to Scotland, France and Wales all occurring on his watch? This is simply not a tactic and it stinks worse than the Schmidt "keeping his cards hidden" nonsense we used to hear. At least Ireland were still decent under Schmidt at that time, England now are an absolute joke and another 5th in the 6N seems likely. How is that solid ground to go into the WC?

Holy hyperbole batman!

 

[Which Tyler]

Bloke called Jones, I think. At least by his actions.

Ah, so nobody at all then.

I'll be honest, posts like this and Ragey & Oggmonster above put me right back into wanting Eddie to stay - because the criticisms simply aren't grounded in reality (and there of plenty of criticisms based on reality to make - they're just ignored for things that aren't true).

A discussion where one side convinces me they aren't rational, convinces me not to support them.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Or I have a different opinion to you? No particular need to be rude though.


Yes, people said that, that doesn't mean that everyone was in agreement. Wins are wins. 2017 was still England 4th most successfull season in history; beaten only by 1992, 2003 and 2016


I never said he did; tough to call a 11:0:1 season as a sacrifice for... anything at all, given that it's an outright victory.


And he accuses me of selective memory.


And he accuses me of selective memory.


Holy hyperbole batman!

You know these record worsts aren't opinions right? They are factual? You call it hyperbole but it's right there in the numbers. In Jones' poor years, we were putting in performances that are right there on record as some of the worst England have ever produced... Selective memory is ignoring those. He can now add our win-loss record for the most recent year as being down there with teams that were rightly regarded as one of the lowest points in modern English rugby in the massive post-2003 downturn and yet we shouldn't treat it as such because of his stats being hugely skewed by his first 2 years?

 

[Crash Hamster]

Ah, so nobody at all then.

I'll be honest, posts like this and Ragey & Oggmonster above put me right back into wanting Eddie to stay - because the criticisms simply aren't grounded in reality (and there of plenty of criticisms based on reality to make - they're just ignored for things that aren't true).

A discussion where one side convinces me they aren't rational, convinces me not to support them.

I don't see (I don't, this is my opinion) the necessity of being shite for the last couple of 6N and this group of Autumn internationals (we undeniably have been, look at the results) in order to magically improve for the RWC. ("I feel like we are building a really good base to have a really good go at the World Cup, a really good go." Jones.)

It's not a complex argument: (opinion) England are under-performing, given the breadth and depth of talent available. If you accept that we have some excellent players, Jones is under-performing as coach. If you think that England lack quality players in breadth and depth and that Jones is doing the absolute best with the resources available, it's fine for you to support him. You're not making a rational case for this though.

"it's entirely my fault." E. Jones
" Results tell you everything and that is what we are judged by" E. Jones
"Test match rugby is all about consistency." E. Jones.

 

[Rinkadink]

Ah, so nobody at all then.

I'll be honest, posts like this and Ragey & Oggmonster above put me right back into wanting Eddie to stay - because the criticisms simply aren't grounded in reality (and there of plenty of criticisms based on reality to make - they're just ignored for things that aren't true).

A discussion where one side convinces me they aren't rational, convinces me not to support them.

Supporting B*th has never been rational but that sadly still happens.

Oh well.

Back to Jones, are those rumours regarding a parting of ways actually weighty or are they fan driven? The other rumours about testing and pushing his squad do have some weight, from what I've heard.

 

[Crash Hamster]

"it's entirely my fault." E. Jones
" Results tell you everything and that is what we are judged by" E. Jones
"Test match rugby is all about consistency." E. Jones.



Secondary source for the tweet, obviously. BBC reporting Amazon interview for the others. Pretty rational.

 

[Crash Hamster]

RFU source.

 

[Crash Hamster]

RFU source.

Tweet didn't stay up for long, so had to grab it...

 

[Reiser99]

Blah blah blah *disappointing*, blah blah blah *improvement*, blah blah blah *building*...but we're still sticking with Jones and absolutely nothing will change and this whole committee **** is just for show.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think EJ was deliberately sandbagging in 2018 he was just running the players into the ground so that they'd be fitter and work better under stress/fatigue in 2019
Seemed hopeful at the time but paid off in the end

This time round feels different - and as mentioned above: he's trying to recreate the magic with players who are four years longer in the tooth and maybe aren't capable of producing that level of performance at this stage in their careers

One of the biggest red flags is the Smith/Farell combo, it just doesn't work.
Ford/Farrell worked, and it's not surprising because they'd known each other since they were born and had played together since they were in early age grades - they'd built up an understanding.
When Englands form dropped it feels like Ford took a lot of the blame in EJs eyes so was dropped, Farrell went to 10 until Smiths form was so good for so long that he couldn't be ignored. Trying to recreate that bond after dropping Ford isn't happening - Smith doesn't playing alongside a guy like Farrell for his club and Farrell plays 10 at his club. It does a disservice to both players skillsets