England v South Africa - 16/11/2024 (17.40)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Steward will be ripped apart, he's just too slow for an international full back. He's basically a passenger in open play.

Can't wait to hear Habana say 'I noticed the opposition full back was slow on the turn'.

Steward will be ripped apart, he's just too slow for an international full back. He's basically a passenger in open play.

Can't wait to hear Habana say 'I noticed the opposition full back was slow on the turn'.

True without Furbank we would've been without his lemme check 3 tackles

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

How could you possibly know that, it's classified information.

Hopeless plans, classified information. Sounds like an open goal for @General Melchett.

 

[General Melchett]

Hopeless plans, classified information. Sounds like an open goal for @General Melchett.

Eh eh exactly.....and that is what is so brilliant about it. It will catch Rassie totally off guard. Doing precisely what we've done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing he'll expect Borthwick to do this time. There is however one small problem...

 

[Saintjay]

Steward will fit the game plan for this game. Might as well see how he goes.

Not entirely sure England have the players for the arm wrestle kick chase game. Beeb reporting JVP into the 23 and Borth might try to attack the edges to beat the blitz. I guess we'll all see at the weekend.

 

[BrokenWing]

Borthwick apparently frustrated by the players not sticking to the plan which is one of the most dispiriting phrases I've heard in a while.

Must be soooo frustrating as head coach watching your players go off plan after 20 minutes…. But as head coach his hands are obviously tied…

If only there was someone somewhere that could've done something about it… I don't know who, or what, but there must be someone out there that could come in and keep the players on plan.

Maybe Sir Kev could be the "keeping players on plan coach"

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I agree with this point generally, but it wasnt the coaching that caused Ellis Genge to hurl his pass into touch rather than to a teammate.

Great point. Structure etc has to be there, but can only take you so far. Little the coaches can do if players can't execute basic skills and there have been some recent failures when matches are in the balance.

Against Aus, Itoje failed to take the final kick off, handing possession to Aus who went on and scored. It was a good short kick off, but he was running on to the ball and you'd have been expecting him to nail that 9 times out of 10, but when the heat was on he didn't. Catch that and the game's won. He was under challenge from Sua'ali'i but still had a clear shot at it and taking kick offs is one of a lock's core skills. One for another day whether he was targeted as he had no height advantage over Sua'ali'i and had 80 minutes in his legs, but you can't help feeling that it might have been easier for a taller player like Isiekwe who was on the pitch or Chessum.

Against NZ D Mac was nailing kicks from everywhere, while Ford missed a relatively straightforward kick that would have got us over the line. Smith's kicking, by his own admission, also cost us the first NZ test in the summer. We were in a position to win both, but kicks they'd expect to get missed. Fine margins, but this is the very top level and a core skill for those guys.

Without those mistakes we might be looking at things very differently.

Of course that doesn't acknowledge what went on in the 78 minutes beforehand, but the old t-cup stuff remains. In 03 Johnson apparently called the final carry to himself as he realised the half backs weren't perfectly set for the drop, that kind of clarity and execution matters when the pressure is on.

 

[rN_X]

South Africa XV:
1 Ox Nche,
2 Bongi Mbonami,
3 Wilco Louw;
4 Eben Etzebeth,
5 RG Snyman;
6 Siya Kolisi (capt.),
7 Pieter-Steph du Toit,
8 Jasper Wiese;
9 Grant Williams,
10 Manie Libbok;
11 Kurt-Lee Arendse,
12 Damian de Allende,
13 Jesse Kriel,
14 Cheslin Kolbe;
15 Aphelele Fassi.

Replacements: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Gerhard Steenekamp, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Elrigh Louw, 20 Kwagga Smith; 21 Cobus Reinach, 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Lukhanyo Am.

 

[Saintjay]

Great point. Structure etc has to be there, but can only take you so far. Little the coaches can do if players can't execute basic skills and there have been some recent failures when matches are in the balance.

Against Aus, Itoje failed to take the final kick off, handing possession to Aus who went on and scored. It was a good short kick off, but he was running on to the ball and you'd have been expecting him to nail that 9 times out of 10, but when the heat was on he didn't. Catch that and the game's won. He was under challenge from Sua'ali'i but still had a clear shot at it and taking kick offs is one of a lock's core skills. One for another day whether he was targeted as he had no height advantage over Sua'ali'i and had 80 minutes in his legs, but you can't help feeling that it might have been easier for a taller player like Isiekwe who was on the pitch or Chessum.

Against NZ D Mac was nailing kicks from everywhere, while Ford missed a relatively straightforward kick that would have got us over the line. Smith's kicking, by his own admission, also cost us the first NZ test in the summer. We were in a position to win both, but kicks they'd expect to get missed. Fine margins, but this is the very top level and a core skill for those guys.

Without those mistakes we might be looking at things very differently.

Of course that doesn't acknowledge what went on in the 78 minutes beforehand, but the old t-cup stuff remains. In 03 Johnson apparently called the final carry to himself as he realised the half backs weren't perfectly set for the drop, that kind of clarity and execution matters when the pressure is on.

Taking the kick offs was an issue for the entire game. We lost four in total. After the third one the coaches and players should have identified it's an issue and not still get it wrong again in the 79th minute. It was a clear plan from Aus and obvious to anyone that's what they were targeting.

You can't account for not getting the basic simple skills right. I think it fits into the good vs world class debate. World class players very rarely get the basics wrong and make the right choice 9 times out of 10.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Great point. Structure etc has to be there, but can only take you so far. Little the coaches can do if players can't execute basic skills and there have been some recent failures when matches are in the balance.

Against Aus, Itoje failed to take the final kick off, handing possession to Aus who went on and scored. It was a good short kick off, but he was running on to the ball and you'd have been expecting him to nail that 9 times out of 10, but when the heat was on he didn't. Catch that and the game's won. He was under challenge from Sua'ali'i but still had a clear shot at it and taking kick offs is one of a lock's core skills. One for another day whether he was targeted as he had no height advantage over Sua'ali'i and had 80 minutes in his legs, but you can't help feeling that it might have been easier for a taller player like Isiekwe who was on the pitch or Chessum.

Against NZ D Mac was nailing kicks from everywhere, while Ford missed a relatively straightforward kick that would have got us over the line. Smith's kicking, by his own admission, also cost us the first NZ test in the summer. We were in a position to win both, but kicks they'd expect to get missed. Fine margins, but this is the very top level and a core skill for those guys.

Without those mistakes we might be looking at things very differently.

Of course that doesn't acknowledge what went on in the 78 minutes beforehand, but the old t-cup stuff remains. In 03 Johnson apparently called the final carry to himself as he realised the half backs weren't perfectly set for the drop, that kind of clarity and execution matters when the pressure is on.

The final play shows both individual errors and coaching errors I think. Itoje loses a 60/40 in his favour and he did seem switched off, not great but he'd had a very impactful game to that point and you're right that the team should have known / been taught to adjust. Afterward the rush defence mixed with committing 2+ players to each ruck was lunacy and it was all coaching. There was one ruck on the left side that had 4 England players in it, they were playing catch up after that while also playing high energy defence with the clock in the red. They had to either defend passively or steer clear of the rucks in that play.

Individual mistakes will always happen, they'll be fewer when better drilled and having the right guys in the right place to execute.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

South Africa XV:
1 Ox Nche,
2 Bongi Mbonami,
3 Wilco Louw;
4 Eben Etzebeth,
5 RG Snyman;
6 Siya Kolisi (capt.),
7 Pieter-Steph du Toit,
8 Jasper Wiese;
9 Grant Williams,
10 Manie Libbok;
11 Kurt-Lee Arendse,
12 Damian de Allende,
13 Jesse Kriel,
14 Cheslin Kolbe;
15 Aphelele Fassi.

Replacements: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Gerhard Steenekamp, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Elrigh Louw, 20 Kwagga Smith; 21 Cobus Reinach, 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Lukhanyo Am.

I assume Mostert isn't fit and Louw can cover lock or move into the back with PSdT covering lock.

Happy for Williams starting and Reinach on the bench. Those are IMO our best bets at 9. If Libbok is playing I prefer him starting and Pollard on the bench. Happy enough with his inclusion with SFM injured. I am elated to see a 5-3 bench split. And happy to see Fassi get a shot. He is the better option under the high ball and on defense and a killer ball in hand if not possessed of Le Roux's pass. Also, I feel a better fit if Libbok is starting.

Very happy overall everything considered.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

5:3 bench?
They're terrified

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Did not see him picking Libbok. Would suggest Rassie smells blood.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Honestly that Genge pass was so bizarre, he looked primed for a massive smash to then just pass it for really no reason
Feel old Genge would've gone full baby rhino

 

[Scotty]

5:3 bench?
They're terrified

When is our team being announced?

 

[Saintjay]

When is our team being announced?

When Steve's XL spread sheet says so.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

5:3 bench?
They're terrified

Presumably Pollard is going to come on when Libbok starts missing all his kicks.

 

[General Melchett]

Presumably Pollard is going to come on when Libbok starts missing all his kicks.

So after five minutes then.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

5:3 bench?
They're terrified

Kind of the ultimate insult isn't it, that they're not bothered by our pack at home.

Bet that's caused spreadsheet meltdown in the Borthers Brains Trust.

 

[Derpus]

I don't get why so much is made of our blitz defence, tbh - so many clubs and countries use it, but for some reason with England it's spoken about like it's some rare rocket science

Didnt you lot (or maybe more specifically Sarries) 'pioneer' the tactic?

Wallabies seemed to counter it reasonably well by keeping play tight. Bokkies pretty good at that as it happens.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Didnt you lot (or maybe more specifically Sarries) 'pioneer' the tactic?

Apparently the first side to use it was wasps in the early 00s (Shaun Edwards brought it over from League)

So not exactly a new/novel concept