England v South Africa - 16/11/2024 (17.40)

[TRF_Olyy]

That's a narrow minded view of looking at the sport, imo

If your measure of success is whether your 9 is better than DuPont then every team in the history of rugby is an abject failure

A well coached side of good players will beat a poorly coached team of worldies

 

[The Seeker]

I've got South Africa in this one.

 

[Saintjay]

Unfortunately we have a poorly coached team of good players.

France, Ireland, South Africa well coached with a sprinkle of worldies.

Even with a good coach I really don't see how we over take them. The gap probably only closes when the worldies start to age out.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree we could be a lot better coached. And of course anyone will look better playing alongside better players in a slick, stable outfit.

But I'll ask again, how many of those you've just named would be first choices in the top 4 ranked teams?

NZ might be interested in a lock or 2, but I couldn't see any of them picking Earl , Freeman or Lawrence for example, nor T Curry on recent form. Mitchell's certainly not kicking out Dupont or JGP. Underhill can't even make our team although I reckon that's a massive mistake.

So we can and must do better. But we also need to be realistic on our player calibre. And until our front row and centres are sorted it's probably all moot anyway.

It's easier to look like a player who belongs in a top team when you're in a top team. You have to be something really exceptional to look like you deserve a spot in the top teams when your entire team is failing. Stick Dupont in England and he'd still clearly be a talent but I doubt he'd get the same plaudits as he does for France.

I think England have players who definitely could look world class if they were in the south African side and being coached in their system.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

England definitely have the talent to bridge the top 4 gap. Prop and midfield is probably the worry, don't think any of their guys there start for any of the top 4. Maybe the odd exception where they'd make one of the four.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

That's a narrow minded view of looking at the sport, imo

If your measure of success is whether your 9 is better than DuPont then every team in the history of rugby is an abject failure

A well coached side of good players will beat a poorly coached team of worldies

The point being that other teams do have these worldies who consistently influence matches and can make the difference between winning or losing tight games. At the moment we don't. Even one who might - M Smith - is the subject of debate about whether he fits or is part of the problem.

Don't disagree with your last point at all, although maybe one trait of a worldie is that they can be trusted to problem solve within a looser framework and need less direction than mere mortals.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Unfortunately we have a poorly coached team of good players.

France, Ireland, South Africa well coached with a sprinkle of worldies.

Even with a good coach I really don't see how we over take them. The gap probably only closes when the worldies start to age out.

I agree with this point generally, but it wasnt the coaching that caused Ellis Genge to hurl his pass into touch rather than to a teammate.

 

[ChicagoKid]

England definitely have the talent to bridge the top 4 gap. Prop and midfield is probably the worry, don't think any of their guys there start for any of the top 4. Maybe the odd exception where they'd make one of the four.

The issue with England is that where they lack talent is 1.) Critical to success and 2.) The talent dropoff is extraordinary considering their player pool.

Dan Cole has been a very good prop for a very long time, but where would he rank if he was South African?

1.) Malherbe
2.) Koch
3.) Thomas Du Toit
4.) Trevor
5.) Wilco Louw
6.) Fouche
7.) Cole

You could argue Cole is ahead of Louw or Fouche, but zero chance he is in the top 4. Somehow Scotland and England have similar depth problems despite England's player pool being at least 10x bigger.

 

[West Country Wail]

If selected, the Boks will have a field day with Sleightholme. Manny has had more experience with the blitz with club and country.

I've bet that they win out of pure pigheadedness but I can't see anything but a +20 point loss here. Happy to be wrong.

This is and a 6N blow out can't leave SB in place, shirley? I know he's contracted to WC27 yadda yadda but that's years of fans lives.

That being said, very exciting games for the past few weeks.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'd really question why we have such a difficult defence system that takes ages to learn.

Why can't we just have a normal defence that doesn't take years and loads of games to lose.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't get why so much is made of our blitz defence, tbh - so many clubs and countries use it, but for some reason with England it's spoken about like it's some rare rocket science

 

[West Country Wail]

I don't get why so much is made of our blitz defence, tbh - so many clubs and countries use it, but for some reason with England it's spoken about like it's some rare rocket science

Ours seems like it's at the extreme end of the spectrum with the least amount of people experienced in it and the most media eyes on it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Times thinking that Spencer and Furbank will be dropped. Steward obviously in at 15, probably Randall at 9 although JvP has apparently "trained well this week" and we all know that training well has direct correlation to what happens in a big match. (Although at one point JvP did look like the favoured one).

B Curry and Sleightholme also in line to start.

Borthwick apparently frustrated by the players not sticking to the plan which is one of the most dispiriting phrases I've heard in a while.

AOF likely to drop down and play for the A team. With whom he's not been training…..

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Times thinking that Spencer and Furbank will be dropped. Steward obviously in at 15, probably Randall at 9 although JvP has apparently "trained well this week" and we all know that training well has direct correlation to what happens in a big match. (Although at one point JvP did look like the favoured one).

B Curry and Sleightholme also in line to start.

Borthwick apparently frustrated by the players not sticking to the plan which is one of the most dispiriting phrases I've heard in a while.

AOF likely to drop down and play for the A team. With whom he's not been training…..

Would that be the plan where they get out of the ruck and walk very slowly towards the opposition?

 

[BrokenWing]

How could you possibly know that, it's classified information.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Steward will be ripped apart, he's just too slow for an international full back. He's basically a passenger in open play.

Can't wait to hear Habana say 'I noticed the opposition full back was slow on the turn'.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Steward is a good option vs the Boks tbh,
Randall would be a bad choice, but JvP would be good

Borthwick apparently frustrated by the players not sticking to the plan which is one of the most dispiriting phrases I've heard in a while.

He's definitely EJ's son, isn't he?

 

[Geordie]

The issue with England is that where they lack talent is 1.) Critical to success and 2.) The talent dropoff is extraordinary considering their player pool.

Dan Cole has been a very good prop for a very long time, but where would he rank if he was South African?

1.) Malherbe
2.) Koch
3.) Thomas Du Toit
4.) Trevor
5.) Wilco Louw
6.) Fouche
7.) Cole

You could argue Cole is ahead of Louw or Fouche, but zero chance he is in the top 4. Somehow Scotland and England have similar depth problems despite England's player pool being at least 10x bigger.

This is a failing in the Premiership and Rob Baxter the Exeter coach actually bemoaned this at the start of last season. England have forgotten how to prop / scrummage so we can develop props who can pass like a fly half! That might work in the prem but it wont work in the Euros or International games.

Thats being addressed though and we have a clutch of young lads coming through now who really can scrummage. It will take time for them to come through to the international set up though and make an impact. So until then we have to deal with what we have. Cole is simply a stop gap now in a very barren situation. In fact im sure hes due to retire end of this season.

 

[Geordie]

Steward will be ripped apart, he's just too slow for an international full back. He's basically a passenger in open play.

Can't wait to hear Habana say 'I noticed the opposition full back was slow on the turn'.

Steward needs to be played correctly...and supported by his wingers in the right defensive set up. Ie The wingers can do the speedy chasing back when required.

Steward has been VERY good this season...and his carrying and impact work has been again...very good!

 

[Geordie]

Times thinking that Spencer and Furbank will be dropped. Steward obviously in at 15, probably Randall at 9 although JvP has apparently "trained well this week" and we all know that training well has direct correlation to what happens in a big match. (Although at one point JvP did look like the favoured one).

B Curry and Sleightholme also in line to start.

Borthwick apparently frustrated by the players not sticking to the plan which is one of the most dispiriting phrases I've heard in a while.

AOF likely to drop down and play for the A team. With whom he's not been training…..

Meh training together...its overrated.