England v New Zealand

[Shaggy]

Your blind faith in the All Black selectors is very patriotic and most commendable. I don't share it. They have made a number of mistakes over their tenure, not all of which they have admitted to.

1. Rest and Re-cooperation; the wholesale removal of All Blacks from the 2007 Super 12. This was an enormous blunder, that ended up with crucial players being injured and unable to play at vital times (Dan Carter, Conrad Smith). I supported this at the time, so I was wrong as well.

2. The omission of Aaron Mauger for the 2007 quarter-final v France. A crucial blunder that may have cost us that game.

3. The failure to have a dropped goal plan for a close game. As far as I can see, they STILL don't have one, and that is worrying with the 2011 RWC only 10 months away, given that two of the seven RWC finals so far have been won with a dropped goal at the end. You rarely if ever see Dan Carter practising drop goals at training. (and I have been to a few). He is an awful drop goal kicker with an abysmal success rate... 2 dropped goals from 6 attempts in 75 tests.

4. Isaac Ross, Hosea Gear.... nuff said

5. Mils Muliaina at centre... nuff said

6. Getting Luke McAlister back from the NH

7. Letting Jerry Collins go, and the disgraceful manner in which they did so.

All this goes to show that these guys ARE capable of making mistakes.... big mistakes. They aren't infallible, and I ( as well as a LOT of other observers) believe they are making a mistake now.

If Donald comes on on Saturday, plays a blinder, and wins us the game, I will be the first to put my hand up and say I was wrong...

I won't be strolling down to the TAB to put any money on it!!!

You know I generally agree with a lot of what you say Cooky, and do agree with some of what you say (the drop goal stuff) ... and I could be wrong about some of what I'm about to say as well (It wouldn't be the first time), but I don't see that some of the things you've listed as mistakes made by the selectors.

Their job is to select and trial players, establish combinations, and mold these players into a successful team, and regardless of whether these players are persevered with or they fall by the wayside, the only way to know for sure is to select and play them.

As for the rest and recuperation and tactical stuff, they need to innovative and try stuff ... and yes, sometimes it doesn't turn out the way we hope, I don't see these as failures by the selectors.

I readily admit the selectors get it right even more times than me ... and they have a pretty good win ratio, and have proven that they can right the ship when things haven't gone right with the Abs (like recovering from the losses to the Boks) ... so yes, I have faith.

Finally, I, like you will be pleased to be proved wrong about Donald ... I did not support his selection, based particularly on the test I saw on his home ground, where he played at 2nd five eighth (if you can't play well in front of your home crowd, it makes me worry), but once selected, I supported him because the selectors saw him as the best fit available - he probably has done his chips now regardless of what our various opinions are anyway.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

It's getting pretty pathetic, defending Donald's decisions. Either you're so bias, you can't admit that the players you've been talking up played poorly, or you don't know the first thing about rugby. He doesn't deserve a start, he deserves to be dropped, and I consider myself a fairly reasonable person when it comes to performances. 20 test, and has done next to nothing but prove he's out of his depth. There were huge doubts cast about him before the game, and they were confirmed. He can't handle pressure, he makes poor decision, he doesn't execute moves properly, and chooses the wrong time to do them. For all the complaints about Cruden, he looked far better than Donald, and he was having an average day. Slade, when he came on for 20+ minutes, made a big impact in beating Australia.

The cliche that you can't blame a player for a teams loss, is all well and good, but you can't deny that when Donald came on, he made crucial mistakes that cost the match, at a time in which mistakes could not afford to have been made, and they were mistakes that have been heavily criticised before he was even selected for the team.

1. He is a poor goal kicker under pressure. Yes Carter missed two kicks, from over 40m out, but the kick Donald missed, was fairly easy. I very much doubt Carter would have missed them. This comes down to handling pressure.
2. His chip kicks are predictable and don't pay off.
3. When under pressure, he becomes uncreative, and will not control the backline like he should, instead tries to just break the line himself.
4. He chokes, he made the wrong call (and with 20 seconds left on the clock, any move was better than a kick deep up field, with a good backline counter attacking. Had he kicked it into touch, with the ref playing on, the defence could have reorganized or even contested posession. Had he run it up a few more phazes, the All Blacks would have certainly won.

His strengths that were mentioned were both his good goal kicking, and good defence. In the time he was on the field, Donald missed over 5 tackles, while also doing a high shot, which would have likely been a yellow card (mr composure). His shot at goal, his other strength, missed from an easy angle. Stop making excuses for him. Had you said "Yeah, he had a bad day but I still think he has what it takes", I'm sure it could have been left there, but instead your approach was to blame everyone else under the sun, and claim Donald's performance wasn't sub-par.

Perhaps I just know more about Donald than you do? And I'm sure the selectors do too, funny how we all agree, isn't it...

 

[woodward]

All I'll say is that if what you say was in fact true...

He wouldn't be there

But the reality is He is there. So there are 3 very experienced coaches who know more about rugby and the skill level and potential players have than you do who agree with me. And their livelihood depends on the decisions & selections they make.

So you agree to never question any All Black selections? They selected him because they thought he'd improved since before when he completely sucked, turns out he sucked even more.

Every time he's on the field for the All Blacks the team plays average or badly. Worst modern All Black.

Perhaps I just know more about Donald than you do? And I'm sure the selectors do too, funny how we all agree, isn't it...

Interesting you use his selection as evidence for him not being completely useless as an All Black, as after this tour he will never play for the All Blacks again and everybody including Donald himself will be relieved.

The cartel are notorious for giving too many chances, they will never make that mistake again with Donald.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Interesting you use his selection as evidence for him not being completely useless as an All Black, as after this tour he will never play for the All Blacks again and everybody including Donald himself will be relieved.

The cartel are notorious for giving too many chances, they will never make that mistake again with Donald.

If you say so.

 

[markshaw]

Invictus..sorry I have joined this conversation late and havent the time to read back but I see you are defending Donald. I'd like to know your evidence from his performance against the Aussies that he can handle test rugby.

 

[ranger]

Perhaps I just know more about Donald than you do? And I'm sure the selectors do too, funny how we all agree, isn't it...

Whaaat? we have all watched the same games.. i don't really care if you hide in the bushes outside his house sometimes. You are in the same position to judge him as everyone else. He has tanked on the field, thats the only place it matters.

 

[woodward]

I'd like to know your evidence from his performance against the Aussies that he can handle test rugby.

Could probably extend that to any All Blacks game

 

[nickdnz]

Perhaps I just know more about Donald than you do? And I'm sure the selectors do too, funny how we all agree, isn't it...

Perhaps you're a one eyed Chiefs supporter? And I'm sure most members do too, funny how we all agree, isn't it...

Supporting Donald is like sticking a fork into a toaster, getting shocked, and then trying again and again. Provide one bit of evidence that shows he's capable? I've given plenty of reasons why I don't think he is, and yet you can not give me an example of any reason why he's in the squad. Yes, the coaches are good, but some of their selections have been shoddy at best, the number of All Blacks who have been chosen, shown promise, and then been thrown aside, is evident of this. Graham Henry admitted himself, it took both his wife and his mother to ask 'why isn't Hosea Gear in the squad', before he was selected.

Whaaat? we have all watched the same games.. i don't really care if you hide in the bushes outside his house sometimes. You are in the same position to judge him as everyone else. He has tanked on the field, thats the only place it matters.

:lol:
Good post. And I pride myself on watching almost every Super rugby game and every NPC game and certainly every All Black test match.

 

[Shaggy]

Perhaps you're a one eyed Chiefs supporter? And I'm sure most members do too, funny how we all agree, isn't it...

Supporting Donald is like sticking a fork into a toaster, getting shocked, and then trying again and again. Provide one bit of evidence that shows he's capable? I've given plenty of reasons why I don't think he is, and yet you can not give me an example of any reason why he's in the squad. Yes, the coaches are good, but some of their selections have been shoddy at best, the number of All Blacks who have been chosen, shown promise, and then been thrown aside, is evident of this. Graham Henry admitted himself, it took both his wife and his mother to ask 'why isn't Hosea Gear in the squad', before he was selected.


:lol:
Good post. And I pride myself on watching almost every Super rugby game and every NPC game and certainly every All Black test match.

Hehe ... well i'm one eyed as well, but my patch is a Red and Black one ... years of wearing it has made my good eye stronger, and I have cast it over the whole Stephen Donald situation

He was selected on ITM cup form (like Gear, Toeava, and SBW), and because the AB's No.2 and 3 kickers are both injured (Weepu and Dagg) ... I think Donald (and Toeava) will now only make the AB's World Cup squad if there are a lot of injuries - the backups to Carter IMO will be Slade because of the positions he can cover/a better fit for the bench, and Weepu, who has proven his temperament at test match level and can play 10, and is the No 2 goal kicker anyway.

Toeava will lose out to Dagg and Kahui if they are fit

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Perhaps you're a one eyed Chiefs supporter? And I'm sure most members do too, funny how we all agree, isn't it...

Supporting Donald is like sticking a fork into a toaster, getting shocked, and then trying again and again. Provide one bit of evidence that shows he's capable? I've given plenty of reasons why I don't think he is, and yet you can not give me an example of any reason why he's in the squad. Yes, the coaches are good, but some of their selections have been shoddy at best, the number of All Blacks who have been chosen, shown promise, and then been thrown aside, is evident of this. Graham Henry admitted himself, it took both his wife and his mother to ask 'why isn't Hosea Gear in the squad', before he was selected.


:lol:
Good post. And I pride myself on watching almost every Super rugby game and every NPC game and certainly every All Black test match.

Perhaps the game against Oz a year or two ago where Donald came on for Nonu, I believe, and closed out the game?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If I could just interject for a moment :

I'm wondering whether England will revert to their kicking and pickanddriving gameplan, or if it's all talk/a red herring.
Looking at the team, i think it's split 50/50ish on players that would suit the two. Cueto and Flood have been involved in a lot of kick and chase in the past, and Easter/Moody/Sheridan/Thompson have had their fair of pick and drives over the years
Then you've got Foden/Ashton/Youngs who are counterattacking machines, and Lawes is a top runner 'n' all. Flood and Cueto will do what they're told, I feel. They'll be useful whichever gameplan they decide to go for, but will stick to it. Hape will also be more used to a running game, coming from his League background.

I'm hoping the emphasis will be on gaining the upper hand at the set piece, but not actively seeking them. I've not actually read an interview where they've said "We're going to kick the ball, and pick and drive" just that they want "physicality" and they want to be like the England of old (which had a bloody good set piece, but then a top running game as well) - it's the news sites that seem to have run with this and said England are looking to play boring rugby etc.
I'm hoping it's all speculation and that England will play what's in front of them rather than stick to a gameplan solidly

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Whaaat? we have all watched the same games.. i don't really care if you hide in the bushes outside his house sometimes. You are in the same position to judge him as everyone else. He has tanked on the field, thats the only place it matters.

You've watched all the Waikato and all the Chiefs games?

 

[nickdnz]

You've watched all the Waikato and all the Chiefs games?

I know I have. I haven't missed a Chiefs or Waikato game in several years, even went up to watch a Chiefs game in 2008. Donald's still **** at test level.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I know I have. I haven't missed a Chiefs or Waikato game in several years, even went up to watch a Chiefs game in 2008. Donald's still **** at test level.

Then I can only conclude there's something wrong with you

 

[Shaggy]

If I could just interject for a moment :

I'm wondering whether England will revert to their kicking and pickanddriving gameplan, or if it's all talk/a red herring.
Looking at the team, i think it's split 50/50ish on players that would suit the two. Cueto and Flood have been involved in a lot of kick and chase in the past, and Easter/Moody/Sheridan/Thompson have had their fair of pick and drives over the years
Then you've got Foden/Ashton/Youngs who are counterattacking machines, and Lawes is a top runner 'n' all. Flood and Cueto will do what they're told, I feel. They'll be useful whichever gameplan they decide to go for, but will stick to it. Hape will also be more used to a running game, coming from his League background.

I'm hoping the emphasis will be on gaining the upper hand at the set piece, but not actively seeking them. I've not actually read an interview where they've said "We're going to kick the ball, and pick and drive" just that they want "physicality" and they want to be like the England of old (which had a bloody good set piece, but then a top running game as well) - it's the news sites that seem to have run with this and said England are looking to play boring rugby etc.
I'm hoping it's all speculation and that England will play what's in front of them rather than stick to a gameplan solidly

What? ... you want to talk about the game in the game thread? ... how rude

Yep, i'd been wondering if the whole "concentrate on defence/old fashion test" stuff, was a red herring ... if you pick backs like that , it's not likely to be a game where the No 10 goes out to introduce himself to the outside backs after the match, because it's the first time they've met - it's unlikely that they won't play a running game and test the All Black mid field in particular

 

[nickdnz]

What? ... you want to talk about the game in the game thread? ... how rude

Yep, i'd been wondering if the whole "concentrate on defence/old fashion test" stuff, was a red herring ... if you pick backs like that , it's not likely to be a game where the No 10 goes out to introduce himself to the outside backs after the match, because it's the first time they've met - it's unlikely that they won't play a running game and test the All Black mid field in particular

England's never failed, to fail suprising. It will be a 10 man game. I'm guessing England will play a very closed and defensive game, with the odd run up the field, with the outside backs relying on kicks from the AB's, to get ball. Even with their squad looking like it could be very good on attack, I can't see Johnson backing any style of play other than that of 2003.

 

[Darwin]

If I could just interject for a moment :

I'm wondering whether England will revert to their kicking and pickanddriving gameplan, or if it's all talk/a red herring.
Looking at the team, i think it's split 50/50ish on players that would suit the two. Cueto and Flood have been involved in a lot of kick and chase in the past, and Easter/Moody/Sheridan/Thompson have had their fair of pick and drives over the years
Then you've got Foden/Ashton/Youngs who are counterattacking machines, and Lawes is a top runner 'n' all. Flood and Cueto will do what they're told, I feel. They'll be useful whichever gameplan they decide to go for, but will stick to it. Hape will also be more used to a running game, coming from his League background.

I'm hoping the emphasis will be on gaining the upper hand at the set piece, but not actively seeking them. I've not actually read an interview where they've said "We're going to kick the ball, and pick and drive" just that they want "physicality" and they want to be like the England of old (which had a bloody good set piece, but then a top running game as well) - it's the news sites that seem to have run with this and said England are looking to play boring rugby etc.
I'm hoping it's all speculation and that England will play what's in front of them rather than stick to a gameplan solidly

Yeah it will be interesting to see whether how England decides to play. It may depend on the weather - earlier in the week I heard that there was rain forecast, any idea what the current forecast is looking like? (I probably should look it up myself but I'm too lazy )

Hehe ... well i'm one eyed as well, but my patch is a Red and Black one ... years of wearing it has made my good eye stronger, and I have cast it over the whole Stephen Donald situation

He was selected on ITM cup form (like Gear, Toeava, and SBW), and because the AB's No.2 and 3 kickers are both injured (Weepu and Dagg) ... I think Donald (and Toeava) will now only make the AB's World Cup squad if there are a lot of injuries - the backups to Carter IMO will be Slade because of the positions he can cover/a better fit for the bench, and Weepu, who has proven his temperament at test match level and can play 10, and is the No 2 goal kicker anyway.

Toeava will lose out to Dagg and Kahui if they are fit

Personally I'd be very surprised if Toeava misses out on the AB's squad for the RWC. I'll admit he didn't play well last week, missing two crucial tackles. One he obviously lost his footing, while the other he missed Beale - he certainly wasn't the first AB to miss Beale this year (I remember Smith missing him twice in one match, and he's a much better defensive player than Toeava....). He was the form NZ fullback of the Super 14 in my opnion, and has been brilliant times for the AB's in the last few years. I'm expecting him to have a few huge games if he gets a chance on this end-of-year tour, and if he stays fit I expect him to be a key player for the AB's at the next RWC.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Weather's forecast as "PM showers" at the moment, but it'll change probably change before Saturday.
I hope it stays clear, for everyones sake (watching 80minutes of fumbles and scrums isn't fun for anyone)

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Yeah it will be interesting to see whether how England decides to play. It may depend on the weather - earlier in the week I heard that there was rain forecast, any idea what the current forecast is looking like? (I probably should look it up myself but I'm too lazy )



Personally I'd be very surprised if Toeava misses out on the AB's squad for the RWC. I'll admit he didn't play well last week, missing two crucial tackles. One he obviously lost his footing, while the other he missed Beale - he certainly wasn't the first AB to miss Beale this year (I remember Smith missing him twice in one match, and he's a much better defensive player than Toeava....). He was the form NZ fullback of the Super 14 in my opnion, and has been brilliant times for the AB's in the last few years. I'm expecting him to have a few huge games if he gets a chance on this end-of-year tour, and if he stays fit I expect him to be a key player for the AB's at the next RWC.

Plus Toeava's incredibly versatile.

It's interesting looking at a potential 30 man squad for the WC, especially in the backs.
Props - Woodcock, Franks, Franks, Afoa
Hookers - Hore, Mealamu, Elliot
Locks - Thorn, Donnely, Whitelock, Boric, Williams (Pick 4)
Loose Forwards - McCaw, Kaino, Read, Braid/Thompson, Messam/Vito
Halfbacks - Cowan, Weepu, Mathewson
First Fives - Carter, Donald/Slade/Cruden
Everyone Else - Smith, Nonu, Muliaina, Sivivatu, Jane, Dagg, Kahui, Williams, Rokocoko, Gear, Toeava (Drop 2)

I don't think we'll see any other players entering the squad though.

On to the test, does anyone actually think England will win, this is primarily aimed at the English, but do you ever go into a test with New Zealand thinking 'hey, we seriously have a chance of winning this'?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I have no idea what will happen.
It could go one of three ways, i think:
a) All Blacks run rampant, win by 20+
b) All Blacks will win by <10
c) England will win by 1ish

I think B is most likely.