England v France,23/02/13

[Big Ewis]

You know what so do I. With the caveat the first week was quite good(though I think many were ridiculously overating it) but the last two rounds have been pretty dreck. It looks like England are going to cruise to the trophy(though perhaps not the Grand slam) France look like they don't even care, virtually no urgency in their game, bizarre selections, poor coaching.

Italy peaked hilariously early and partly thanks to a draconian ban on Parisse for getting lippy, will most likely be a non factor for the final two games. Wales have managed to turn things around and this might be the most positive thing to come out of this years edition. I am looking forward to Scotland vs. Ireland I'm hoping it gets things going a little heading into the final two rounds especially since the winner will still ahve a chance at the ***le.

Edit: Also no matter what happens in the final two games this will be France's worst 6N since 2001 and that's providing they win both their remaining games, otherwise it would have to be comparable to the 1999 5N or even worse should they lose both games.(last time they went winless was 1969 though they ahd a draw last complete whitewashing was 1957!!!!)

The problem with this years tournament has been the form of some sides. France have turned up for about 10min in total, Wales didn't realise the 6 nations had started until 40min in, Ireland have only put together 40min of good rugby at the start and Italy were good in the first game and have been poor since. Only Scotland and England have put in consistent performances so far.

The 6 nations is all but over as a contest now, because England's is too far ahead on points difference. They don't look unbeatable though, and I can see Wales beating them on the last weekend, but England will still claim the ***le, and deservedly so. It's just left me a little flat I suppose.

That's it, right in those two comments, good stuff fellas. It's all there...
This year is the opposite of epic.
And I can't fkn believe what some of the English posters are saying here. It seems like you're ACTUALLY proud of England, solely because they are merely winning. There's winning and then there's winning. I've tried being complacent with you guys, but you're just pushing it way too hard. I get one guy telling me how amazing England is because they've played a different game against each foe (AB, Sco, Ire, Fra...) and are such good strategists and blahblah blahhhhh...the hell you on about, it's been the exact same formula the whoooole time. Big - forward - WORK. Then I say "England just being England", and I salute your intensity, but kicking in penalties and having strong forwards ain't exactly glorious guys, be fkn lucid for just a second there. It's so unbelievably kitsch that some english fans are actually smelling their own farts right now, because there's been NOTHING impressive with England so far this tournament, they've just come up with all 3 wins, good for them. Good defense too, but so have Wales and France and Ireland. England can't score a try for crap right now. None against Ireland, and that wasn't a try against us that was luck, two different things.
I can't believe the lack of lucidity and realism of some English guys on here. France has played like shhit the first two for different reasons, and a good 50-60min in this one, but our attack isn't where it should be...etc...you English (some) guys are incapable of seeing the truth. You've won, but in the most inglorious possible way the last two. It's mediocre rugby, it's just you commit less penalties, that's been IT for the last two. That's it. That's been the difference. WOW, what a fkn achievement ! And don't you DARE get the "sore loser froggy" excuse out, because this isn't even close to what this is right here. I don't even care anymore if this is what winning is.

Have some fkn hindsight and admit England is far from impressive, and besides their intensity and discipline (which are very good, not saying anything here) there ain't nothin to it. Where the hell are all backs if this isn't a 10man squad ?
I wouldn't have said all this if some ppl wouldn't ACTUALLY have the nerves of praising this team, just because they won 3. As if they were flawless and textbook dominant or smt...That's it to you english fans huh, just a 4 game winning streak (the AB victory was nice, despite the circumstances) and your side is great all of a sudden, you're not even making an effort to review those victories and admit the tremendous lacks.
This is sooooo silly...have some goddamn self-criticism. It's great you've won, but HOW. Not even a word about HOW. All I read is comparisons to the fkn 2003 squad and praises praises praises. It's appalling !!

The English friend who came over said the same thing, coz he's a bit older and has the hindsight I'm talking about: "if that's victory, I don't care. The French made the game crap at around the 60th, England could feel the end...too bad the match dropped in intensity, but I want to see a good game, a pretty match."

 

[nosevi]

The whole English arrogance myth comes largely from failing to admit that we lost because teams were better than us rather than we were worse than them. There is a difference.

Got you right up until the last bit. Agree with the sentiment that it's a myth, but what's the difference ????

 

[Big Ewis]

Got you right up until the last bit. Agree with the sentiment that it's a myth, but what's the difference ????

m.....myth ?!
:roflrol:

Oh yes yes, so the French are inconsistent and unpredictable, the Celts are hot-blooded, bu the English are just ordinary people with no particular trait besides their obvious qualities. Right, mm hmm. Their arrogance is but a myth, mmmmyes...
:lol: get ouuuuuuuutta here !!!

 

[Maverick1987]

Yes, a period when England were broadly speaking crap.
As I`ve said before beating a **** poor England is all well and good, but it`s not enough if you want to considered a 1st tier rugby nation.

To be honest I've never heard anything so 1 eyed in my life ?! Are you seriously saying that the welsh team haven't evolved and become better in the last 10 years ? When they got beaten (correct me if I'm wrong) by 70 odd points by south Africa to the team that very nearly made last WC final and have won 3 slams in 8 years ! If you do then I'm going blame the celts thinking we are arrogant firmly on your shoulders

The difference is that you can lose to a team because they were better while not being utterly shite yourself or lose because you are utterly shite. I think, and this is a generalisation of course, that English rugby fans spent too much of the period when we were being spanked by all comers bemoaning coaching, form etc without admitting that other teams were simply better than us.

In fairness though we did have good players it's just that when England were playing they were playing for their clubs ^^

 

[smb64]

Completely agree - from the period of 04-11 especially Eng just were not up to scratch. But I don't think we really need this argument I think most sensible rugby supports realize that there is strong competition in the NH, Ireland/Wales/France have been strong and at times strongest in this hemisphere for the past 10 years.

I haven't had a chance to watch the game on telly yet, but from the little I could see from my seat behind the posts, I was little disappointing with our work at the breakdown - we seemed to attack it less (or at least that's the feeling I got). Our attack was also uncreative compared to the Scotland and NZ games. I Don't know whether this was France putting pressure on us or Eng trying to play a very structured game.

Overall I think we should be happy though - its easy to forget how young and inexperienced this team is (especially in terms of caps at least).

Fingers crossed for Morgan to make a comeback from injury as I really rate the Wood-Morgan-Robshaw lineup.

 

[Patchey]

In fairness though we did have good players it's just that when England were playing they were playing for their clubs ^^

True to an extent, especially of the later years under MJ. I'm not saying selection was irrelevant, but if you look at the England squad prior to Johnson's rein of terror you'll find it was pretty handy.

 

[Largejanner]

England weren't just beaten, we were repeatedly out performed between 2004-2011. The occasional 'blips' such as the 2007 World Cup or the Autumn Internationals in 2010 weren't fluke performances per se but showed that England were not in fact '**** poor' and had the potential to win against top quality international oppo. And yet this never consistently occurred because of A) Bad team selection/coaching, B) Some unfortunately injuries to key players and C) Ireland, Wales and France were consistently better than us over that period, hence no Grand Slam, winds over Ireland etc. I'm not saying that the England teams of 2004-2011 were as good as the vintage' of 2003 but we certainly weren't poor.

The whole English arrogance myth comes largely from failing to admit that we lost because teams were better than us rather than we were worse than them. There is a difference.

Wales and Ireland were and are good for NH standards, England circa 2003 were world class and now perhaps have the potential to be world class...there is a difference.

 

[nosevi]

Yoe, take a chill pill, mate. You're saying England are one dimensional and not winning in the right way? Fine put in for a change in the laws. I don't think anyone is saying they are the finished article, I'm certainly not, but they are a young, inexperienced squad moving forward. The fact that they have won their 3 games is a bonus, it's not a bad thing. Given the right circumstances I think they'll open it up a bit more, but so far they've done what they have to do to win. I really can't see why that upsets you so much (and it quite clearly does). For this young side the 6 Nations is not the place to try to experiment, it's the place to build a foundation. They are doing that. Why does that upset you?

You really do baffle me Yoe. You seem like a nice chap but spend about 75% of your 'print' saying how bad you think England are and how unentertaining. Why do you care? I said on the last thread to come out and beat us then. You didn't do it. I think it'd be far more insightful as a French chap to give us the benefit of your wisdom regarding why France is underachieving rather than jumping about shouting about how much you don't rate England.

Just my take on it, keep shouting at shadows if you wish.

 

[Patchey]

And the England of the decade in between these two peaks?

 

[Joseph14]

Yoe, do you think this England team is the finished article under Lancaster's reign?
Do you think Brown, Farrell, Goode and Barritt are going to be untouchable and keep their starting places in this side until and after the World Cup in 2015?

Right now, England is very much a work in progress and its ticking along quite nicely.

Of all the 6 nations sides, England is the least experienced and proven, yet they are already getting results. I am looking forward to the integration of the likes of Burns and Wade over the next year or so ( summer tour is a great opportunity for these guys )

 

[Patchey]

Yoe, do you think this England team is the finished article under Lancaster's reign?
Do you think Brown, Farrell, Goode and Barritt are going to be untouchable and keep their starting places in this side until and after the World Cup in 2015?

Right now, England is very much a work in progress and its ticking along quite nicely.

Of all the 6 nations sides, England is the least experienced and proven, yet they are already getting results. I am looking forward to the integration of the likes of Burns and Wade over the next year or so ( summer tour is a great opportunity for these guys )

Add Daley, Frasier, Kvesic, Billy Vunipola to this.

 

[Largejanner]

To be honest I've never heard anything so 1 eyed in my life ?! Are you seriously saying that the welsh team haven't evolved and become better in the last 10 years ? When they got beaten (correct me if I'm wrong) by 70 odd points by south Africa to the team that very nearly made last WC final and have won 3 slams in 8 years ! If you do then I'm going blame the celts thinking we are arrogant firmly on your shoulders

I`m not denying that Wales has`nt made hay in NH circles whilst England has been on it`s uppers, but if we are talking true world class they have not been the real deal.Their record against SH teams continues to be rubbish and in the last world cup, every time they played a 1st tier rugby nation they got beat.

 

[Maverick1987]

I`m not denying that Wales has`nt made hay in NH circles whilst England has been on it`s uppers, but if we are talking true world class they have not been the real deal.Their record against SH teams continues to be rubbish and in the last world cup, every time they played a 1st tier rugby nation they got beat.

I understand what you mean but I firmly believe that once they have beaten a SH team once it will get the monkey off their back and it will only be a matter of time .

 

[Largejanner]

And the England of the decade in between these two peaks?

....as I`ve said, **** poor.

 

[Patchey]

It would be interesting to compare the records of England, Ireland, Wales and France against Southern Hemisphere nations over the last ten years. At a guess I would say that while England might come out on top it wont be by much. I can only remember a very small number of times I've watched us beat South Africa or Australia (and only once New Zealand). France might even have a better record...

 

[Joseph14]

Wales have improved significantly over the years but they never hit the heights of world class.

Incidentally, it seems England were mediocre lucky blaggers to reach a final in 07 yet Wales were unlucky world class losers in reaching a semi final in 2011...

07 England beat Australia, France in France after they had beat NZ and lost to the best team in the world twice in that tournament.
11 Wales beat Ireland. They lost to a misfiring French and South Africa. If Australia had beaten Ireland in their group game, Wales would have gone home at the quarter final stage.

The NH standard has improved overall in the past decade but its still the World Cup and against the SH sides where the best are judged.

 

[Groundhog]

Wales and Ireland were and are good for NH standards, England circa 2003 were world class and now perhaps have the potential to be world class...there is a difference.

Hold on. You win three matches and now suddenly we're not first tier nations? Let's not get ahead of ourselves eh? After all you've only beaten tier two nations like Ireland and France. Some might say you're prematurely "Creaming yourself" but surely only the Celtic nations do that?

 

[Largejanner]

The NH standard has improved overall in the past decade but its still the World Cup and against the SH sides where the best are judged.

Agreed, the inconvenient truth for far too many on here I reckon.

 

[McTallshort]

Getting back to the game....

England won yesterday because of 2 reasons: The changes and fitness, also SL made a rare selection error putting Lawes on the blindside were he did not have a good game, the set piece is a big worry for me with too many linesouts going wild and the front row being slightly hammered at scrum time. Barriet was excellent as was Robshaw but I am not sure what Farrell was trying to prove going round trying to be the big "I am".

although there are no real contenders for player of the year in this England team they do seem to be very good as a collective and they dont crumble like many England sides have in the past. I also enjoy watching this England team and it kind of shows how dire we have been for 10 years given what SL has done with a fairly young team. The grand slam is on but only because we are the only team with a clean winning sheet. Beating Wales in Cardiff would be a massive ask for this young team but nothing seems to have phased them so far so it could be possible.

 

[Big Ewis]

Yup. We're not arrogant we're just better than you

:lol:

Yoe, take a chill pill, mate. You're saying England are one dimensional and not winning in the right way? Fine put in for a change in the laws. I don't think anyone is saying they are the finished article, I'm certainly not, but they are a young, inexperienced squad moving forward. The fact that they have won their 3 games is a bonus, it's not a bad thing. Given the right circumstances I think they'll open it up a bit more, but so far they've done what they have to do to win. I really can't see why that upsets you so much (and it quite clearly does). For this young side the 6 Nations is not the place to try to experiment, it's the place to build a foundation. They are doing that. Why does that upset you?

You really do baffle me Yoe. You seem like a nice chap but spend about 75% of your 'print' saying how bad you think England are and how unentertaining. Why do you care? I said on the last thread to come out and beat us then. You didn't do it. I think it'd be far more insightful as a French chap to give us the benefit of your wisdom regarding why France is underachieving rather than jumping about shouting about how much you don't rate England.

Just my take on it, keep shouting at shadows if you wish.

I'm not shouting at shadows...
I'll take a chill pill when (some) English supporters take a humility pill, because what they've accomplished is good (they're on their way to a GS ffs) but the way they've done it is anything but impressive.
I think France are shhit for the squad we have on paper, and I've talked about it a million times on this forum, so don't start the whole "you're spending time criticizing my side, but what about yours". I've taken care of my own dirty deeds, now it's my turn to criticize you, coz you sure ain't doin it on your own.
If England was the AB, and they'd crushed everyone in the competition with insane tries, good pack work, excellent ball movement, superb defense...etc....you know what I'd be saying right now ? "Goddamn England !!! They're soooooo good !! man, there's just nothing we can do against THAT...****, you guys were fantastic".
But England sure ain't the AB...

"spend about 75% of your 'print' saying how bad you think England are": I don't spend 75% of my time talking about England no, good or bad ! And don't make me say things, England are bad ?! Who the fk's saying THAT ?! England's good ! They've never been entertaining, that's a given. So I'm not getting that card out now, in 2013. What I'm saying is a lot more substantial than that, than just having flair. I'm saying the very *performance* itself of England, despite winning both the last two, has been mediocre. Intense, but mediocre. They haven't been impressive victories at all, and it pains me to see yet again the English praising their side more than they should. Couldn't win a match in SA, lost two at home against mediocre AUS and SA sides, and if it wasn't for the AB win, there wouldn't be the momentum at all. That's all England fans need, one nice big victory, and they feel they own the world...and you're building on this momentum, thinking you're accomplishing greatness, when it's the other sides who aren't up to the challenge this year simply, cannot put two good performances in a row or even two good 40-min halves together, and England has won on penalties the IRE and FRA matches.

It's very, very clear what I'm saying. I don't even dislike the English team !! I'm a fan of Lancaster, I think he's intelligent and very decent and humble, I like the Youngs brothers, I like Croft and Robshaw....I don't have the automatic anti-English thing at all, but it's just fascinating how you people function with your national side !! You don't see it, it's obvious in your responses, but it's something !!

Again congrats for this thread's win, you kept it together for 80'...not ****** about that guys, honest !