England v France,23/02/13

[fcbfan]

My god, the game is over and England won. Grats to England for a deserved win, France should have performed much better.

Now...

 

[Patchey]

Yoel mate, I don't think anyone is suggesting England have played champagne rugby in the last two games, or that the Scotland game when we did put together some impressive attacking play, was perfect. However this doesn't mean that England haven't had to play well or be impressive as a team in order to win. The whole 'play the conditions' cliche has been overused of late but it is certainly a good point...

To clarify. We're not the All Black, we're not consistently full of flair, we may not even have the best set of individuals on a talent and skill level but I take issue with the statement that England have been mediocre. We would have lost otherwise.

 

[Largejanner]

Hold on. You win three matches and now suddenly we're not first tier nations? Let's not get ahead of ourselves eh? After all you've only beaten tier two nations like Ireland and France. Some might say you're prematurely "Creaming yourself" but surely only the Celtic nations do that?

Sorry, but Ireland are no France my friend, France like England can at least lay some claim to being a 1st tier rugby nation despite their current woes.
Not creaming myself at all at the thought of a GS, if I`m honest I`d rather win a world cup group game.

 

[Crapspray]

I hope Lancaster takes a lot of wingers with him to Argentina. Ashton was dire and, though he seems to be re-finding his attacking form, he is defensive liability. It's all made worse because he's got no challenge for the shirt. All the talk of competition and depth is true 1-10 and partially at 12 and 13, but the back three are teaspoon-deep at the moment. We have two fullbacks and a winger, with no substitute whatsoever.

As others have said, it's not like England have a dearth of wingers either. A lot of youngsters show as much or more in attack than Ashton and defensively can't be much worse. Monye is training with the EPS, as is Strettle, for some temporary fillers. Further on May, Wade, Biggs, and Sharples should get a proper look in. Maybe even give Joseph a go. Ever since Foden's gone a bit naff, as well, I don't think we get the excuse of playing Brown on the wing because there's no place at fullback; though he's making a good fist of it.

Changes for Italy match:

Youngs back at hooker; the line-out didn't improve, and he had a far greater physical presence than Hartley.
Morgan back at 8; far better back row balance, not to mention his running.
M. Vunipola possibly replacing Marler; gives the latter a kick up the arse and give the former a chance. I do miss Corbisiero.
Care and Flood come on earlier, keep an eye on Youngs and Farrell.
Lawes and Haskell benched. Perhaps B. Vunipola gets a go.
Twelvetrees to get 30 minutes alongside Tuilagi.

 

[Groundhog]

Sorry, but Ireland are no France my friend, France like England can at least lay some claim to being a 1st tier rugby nation despite their current woes.
Not creaming myself at all at the thought of a GS, if I`m honest I`d rather win a world cup group game.

But what you're doing is hyping England up based on 6 Nations performances, when really for the last few years, they haven't been playing like a top tier nation. They've just started performing in the last year or two. This team is good, who knows they may be world beaters, but you have nothing to base it on. They've beaten whats been put in front of them, but it's been a horribly under-form French team, and a crippled Irish team. This doesn't make them World Beaters, and they still have a lot to prove.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think we missed Tom Youngs massively, immediate difference at the breakdown as soon as he came on.
I also think Ashton needs to be benched right away.
Farrell had an ok game, apart from a couple of big errors (that chip he made instead of running through a massive gap).
He was acting like a little prick though, I can't see his dad being too happy about the way he was behaving.


France will be very strong if they can consistently field : 9.Parra, 10.Trihn-Duc, 12. Fofana and 8. Picamoles.
That's a great core to build a team on imo

 

[nosevi]

Ok Yoe, maybe a tad harsh, but just read your previous post, maybe you weren't shouting at shadows, but you were swearing at them. I say shadows because, while you may say English supporters are blind to their team's lack of performance, or however you want to term it, you seem completely blind to what the English squad are trying to achieve. You're a fan of SL? Good, he's a breath of fresh air as far as coaching goes in my book. Look at his approach or that of his staff or even the players, their least worry as they step onto the pitch is "Will we impress the neutrals?" "Will we impress the opposition fans?" is probably even further down their list of priorities.

Maybe some are speaking of who is world class and who isn't, but I'm not one of them. I even think this whole 1st tier, 2nd tier stuff is a waste of time - you are how good you are. What SL is doing is taking a young group of players with very little collective experience, and putting them in a position to move forward. A large part of that is confidence and it's awfully difficult to gain that if you loose. They are going on the pitch and grafting out wins, actually a lot like Martin Johnson's lot did as they were on the way up. It might be dull at times, even frustrating but as I see it, it's a means to an end. You build confidence then push on from there. They may well not go forward but for the first time in a while they 'could' go forwards. They may be mediocre in your eyes but at the moment they just need to build on where they are and winning the 6 Nations would be a good first step.

 

[smb64]

I agree ratsapprentice - Ashton was far from impressive - but if you bench him, who do you replace him with? I'd imagine that Lancaster would go with Strettle.

I may be mad for suggesting this but could 14: Foden 15: Goode 11 : Brown work? :lol: Think of all the high balls we could catch!

Maybe that's crazy but personally I'd like to see Foden back in the squad, I miss his counter attacking prowess.

 

[Patchey]

Strettle scored a brace against Leicester this weekend and has been on some good form recently, much as it pains me to admit it. I'd prefer Sharples in for Ashton though, although he may be injured?

I'm waiting until after the Argentian tour for the wingers conundrum to iron itself out. If the Lions take a couple of our outside backs then the likes of Wade, May, Sharples etc will get some capped game time to prove their worth.

 

[Big Ewis]

nosevi:
yeah man, we're cool, no worries !

Yoel mate, I don't think anyone is suggesting England have played champagne rugby in the last two games, or that the Scotland game when we did put together some impressive attacking play, was perfect. However this doesn't mean that England haven't had to play well or be impressive as a team in order to win. The whole 'play the conditions' cliche has been overused of late but it is certainly a good point.


To clarify. We're not the All Black, we're not consistently full of flair, we may not even have the best set of individuals on a talent and skill level but I take issue with the statement that England have been mediocre. We would have lost otherwise.

Well that's my point exactly. Look, in my subconscious even I have nothing against this English squad. I really, really don't...
But that is my point strictly and precisely: that England WERE in deed mediocre. As I've said, at least they've managed to put up a full 80min, as opposed to every other team in the tournament right now; and they're very intense and full of heart and won't let down. But beyond the effort, beyond the mental, beyond the heart and intensity level and all; the ACTUAL LEVEL OF PLAY, technically, structurally - i.e. the very actual RUGBY they play has been, yes, mediocre in the past 2. Big strong forwards, and still no try (I'm not counting that last Tuilagi one, not out of hard feelings but because it was luck wasn't it) in two matchups. They didn't look threatening. Even against Australia last November, a match they've lost at home, they looked threatening for almost the full thing, but again a lack of creativity and imagination held them try-less (except for, again, that no-try try Tuilagi "scored" ! ).

England is "lucky", they really are, not making up excuses out of hard feelings or resentment; England are lucky the rest of us are playing even more mediocre, to not say like SHYT. Look at Wales this tournament man, look at Ireland after a superb first half of the tournament on the road...Italy after a first big win...and who knows with Scotland this past year beating Aus away and losing to Tonga at home then crushing Italy this month...

If England weren't mediocre and were actually playing GOOD, they'd have cruised past Ireland and France this year, and they've shown a lot of difficulty at it in stead...Europe ain't looking great right now ! England are just the least bad out of the lot, really...

 

[racingmetrofan]

Wales have improved significantly over the years but they never hit the heights of world class.

Incidentally, it seems England were mediocre lucky blaggers to reach a final in 07 yet Wales were unlucky world class losers in reaching a semi final in 2011...

07 England beat Australia, France in France after they had beat NZ and lost to the best team in the world twice in that tournament.
11 Wales beat Ireland. They lost to a misfiring French and South Africa. If Australia had beaten Ireland in their group game, Wales would have gone home at the quarter final stage.

The NH standard has improved overall in the past decade but its still the World Cup and against the SH sides where the best are judged.

Its not. The 6n teams and the 4 nations teams go to the world cup to win. No one aims for a place in the semis really, and no one would come home ecstatic that they beat a Southern Hemisphere team in a pool game then got knocked out. Only one team can win the world cup and everyone wants to win - second place is just the first last.

Similarly Scotland probably has a better win:loss ratio over SH sides than over 6 nation sides (at least pre 2011 world cup), but no one suggested they were anywhere near world class (considering that for most NH nations, the reverse ratio is true).

International rugby is judged on how long you can win and keep winning, and enough evidence that you can take it to the 'top' team and maybe win. 6 Nations certainly from the perspective of the international coaches, is massive because apart from a reasonable world cup performance, you never see how your international team can perform over 5 games.

nosevi:
yeah man, we're cool, no worries !



Well that's my point exactly. Look, in my subconscious even I have nothing against this English squad. I really, really don't...
But that is my point strictly and precisely: that England WERE in deed mediocre. As I've said, at least they've managed to put up a full 80min, as opposed to every other team in the tournament right now; and they're very intense and full of heart and won't let down. But beyond the effort, beyond the mental, beyond the heart and intensity level and all; the ACTUAL LEVEL OF PLAY, technically, structurally - i.e. the very actual RUGBY they play has been, yes, mediocre in the past 2. Big strong forwards, and still no try (I'm not counting that last Tuilagi one, not out of hard feelings but because it was luck wasn't it) in two matchups. They didn't look threatening. Even against Australia last November, a match they've lost at home, they looked threatening for almost the full thing, but again a lack of creativity and imagination held them try-less (except for, again, that no-try try Tuilagi "scored" ! ).

England is "lucky", they really are, not making up excuses out of hard feelings or resentment; England are lucky the rest of us are playing even more mediocre, to not say like SHYT. Look at Wales this tournament man, look at Ireland after a superb first half of the tournament on the road...Italy after a first big win...and who knows with Scotland this past year beating Aus away and losing to Tonga at home then crushing Italy this month...

If England weren't mediocre and were actually playing GOOD, they'd have cruised past Ireland and France this year, and they've shown a lot of difficulty at it in stead...Europe ain't looking great right now ! England are just the least bad out of the lot, really...

Thats BS. You can only play what is in front of you. We aren't the all blacks, we wouldn't expect to put 30 points on a team with as good players as us who are not playing that well. We do have a first class game, we showed that pretty definitively against the All Blacks, but for our young team, that came about as a response to playing the best team in the world. We wouldn't expect to replicate that at whim.

Its also worth considering given the massive amount of experience that the French and Irish players had, the reason that they looked to be playing mediocre is because we put so much pressure on them that they couldn't play their game.

 

[ratsapprentice]

If the Lions take a couple of our outside backs

Can't see that happening tbh, although I do think England will take a couple of young wingers on the Argie tour.

I'd personally like to see Brown playing 15, with two in-form, untested, not past their best wingers.
Take your pick from the premiership, we have more than enough of them.
I don't why we should be moving Brown to the wing when he could do the job that Goode's been doing, in preference of having an actual winger.

 

[Aristodemus]

I thought it was a decent match to be honest. France showed up, they played the players where they should be (at least for the first hour heh) and the result of that was a brutal test match. England and France have the best squads in the NH imo, I expect the French will now win the remaining two games they have. Picamoles and Fofana are amazing, maybe good enough to be in a world XV.
I still have selection issues with Lancaster but I have solace in the fact he isn't PSA haha. I think, despite discipline problems, Vunipola should get his chance before Corbs is back. Hartley is safer than Youngs even though the line-out didn't work well yesterday, hopefully he sticks with him. Lawes as flanker didn't work, but he would be in my team instead of Parling. Wood and Robshaw at 6 and 7 are great but Wood shouldn't be at 8. Am I the only one who thinks Easter has paid the price for the WC2011? He is much better than Waldrom and more than that, he is English! While Morgan isn't fit, he would be my choice. I like Youngs at SH, but Care is also very good. As for the other backs, I would go with Freddie Burns at FH with the intention of trying to beat the opposition rather than not lose. 36 and Tuilagi in the centre is what nearly everyone I speak to wants, including me. The back three are tricky at the moment, the only thing I know is Goode shouldn't be anywhere near the team. Brown is a great full-back, he should play there. On the wings I would go Ashton and Sharples.
So now we move on to Italy at home and with our PD it looks like we have already won the ***le! Woohoo That will be two championship wins and a second place in the last three years, not too shabby. More important than that though is hope. 2015 is looming for these young guys and we are progressing well. Despite Yoe, nobody thinks we are world beaters yet, but I am hopeful that this squad could challenge on home ground if we can continue in this direction. THAT is why England fans are happy right now.

 

[Patchey]

Yoel I think we're always going to disagree on this. Had we being mediocre you would have won. I don't think there is any way we would have cruised past France or Ireland.



On the subject of wingers, did anyone see the try Wade just scored? Get him in the team!

 

[mochyn]

I think the English seem to forget that they have a population of 50 million as opposed to Wales 3 million

Yup. We're not arrogant we're just better than you

 

[Tony Manx]

...................n as opposed to Wales 3 million

About the same as New Zealand then..........................

Wade scored a super try but the game is not up to much though!

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think the English seem to forget that they have a population of 50 million as opposed to Wales 3 million

And you seem to forget (read: ignore) that 3/4s of the England team are drawn from only 7% (3.5 million) of the population.

 

[Patchey]

I think the English seem to forget that they have a population of 50 million as opposed to Wales 3 million

I fear my attempt at banter has been mistaken for arrogance about being arrogant.

 

[Groundhog]

And you seem to forget (read: ignore) that 3/4s of the England team are drawn from only 7% (3.5 million) of the population.

I know that Patcheys original comment was just a joke but still, this speaks for itself. Its a few years old but still.

 

[Crapspray]

I think the English seem to forget that they have a population of 50 million as opposed to Wales 3 million

Well, you celts started with a big advantage when we first arrived in Britain around 1500 years ago. It's only because you squandered your lead that it's like that now. Reminds me of English rugby 2004 onwards...