England v France,23/02/13

[TRF_Ezequiel]

nm...

 

[MlleJuju]

Well I had fun watching this match, even if we lost! It was awesome seeing France showing some passion and combativity (even if that got ruined by some tremendously poor and stupid decision making at times).
Well done England, even if I'm really starting do dislike Owen Farrell (he's a brilliant player, but that boy needs to stop punching everyone on the pitch, seriously).
I'm not really disappointed by France. This is one of those down phases France gets all the time. We might have the wooden spoon this year but we might still do very well in the next world's cup. And there's nothing anyone can do about it.

I'm not one of those who blame referees for defeats, I don't see the point in doing that. However I have to say that Joubert is really starting to annoy me. Of course he makes mistakes, he's human! However when you notice that there are very often a lot more mistakes made for one side than the other, you start to wonder. I'm not even going to talk about the world cup final, it was just too obvious there. (And you know it's true when even English, Welsh and Australian supporters tell you how disgusted they were by it.). In yesterday's game, you can see Joubert letting England get away with the same things he penalized France with a minute before. You can also see things like not penalizing an English forward pass, and that action somehow turns into a penalty for England and 3 extra points. I'm sure there were mistakes the other way around too, but they probably didn't give France points.
Anyway, I'm not saying he is the cause of France's defeat at all (France can do that themselves and England played well). But it would be very refreshing to see some fair refereeing from time to time.

What impresses me with England is their fluidity and pragmatism. It's not an extraordinaly exciting rugby to watch (I do hate it when most points scored come from penalties), but it's efficient at winning, so fair enough.
I have to say I think the victory against the AB was blown out of proportion though. Yes, England won, Congratulations. But the ABs weren't there. Everybody seems to forget that 21 out of 23 players had been vomiting (among other things) the day before. They couldn't even catch an easy ball properly. I actually walked past Richie McCaw in London (OMG), 2 days before the match, and he was holding on to Hyde Park's hence, shaking, probably about to vomit.

Anyway, good match, and Allez les Bleus!

 

[Tony Manx]

Floodgates must open now?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Now I don't think we do disagree, I think you're misunderstanding me. In relation to countries like New Zealand where there is a small population with huge success at rugby. I feel they are a combination of high playing numbers (pretty high given the percentage of the population who play it) excellent coaching from a young age, and the huge popularity of the game in New Zealand, giving the game huge financial support.

So you agree that it's irrelevant that England has huge playing numbers because it's made up of low level/low aspiration athletes?
Again though, I think the quality of the coaching at all levels is affected in the same way that the quality of players is.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This is where we'll disagree, I think the main factor affecting how many objectively talented players are produced by any given number of people is how popular said sport is.
Look at Jamaica in sprinting, Brazil/Portugal/Spain in football, eastern Europe in strength sports and New Zealand in rugby.
Those countries all dominate their sports despite having miniscule populations in comparison to teams they are playing against, the reason for that is the number of athletes who play the most popular sport in preference of less popular ones.

I can't agree with this. More numbers + Money being poured into the game = Higher chance of producing better players, it is naive to think it does not. Look at the olympics, USA, GB and China always are on top of the medals tables. Why? Because of large populations and good infrastructure.

 

[nosevi]

Floodgates must open now?

Not at all You play what's in front of you. Interestingly this was the All Black's reaction after the match - I think they thought England did ok.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sqrx0f8Gtg

McCaw was specifically asked if the sickness had effected his side, said no, but that's our Kiwi friends all over - no excuses. What I think is more interesting would be to watch the England South Africa match again and as luck would have it......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvK9cVSivK4

Look at the SA try just after the 42nd minute of the match. That's what won the match as in the final score there was only one point in it. I'm not sure you can have a more unlucky try against you, serious pin-ball on the line. Just the way it goes sometimes. So was the AB match a one off? No, not really. England were ok(ish) against Australia, better (but pretty unlucky) against SA, better again against the All Blacks. It's a progression in my eyes. The next step was to win the 6 Nations, with a GS would be great, but they just needed to win it. Afterwards they can hopefully press on from there.

 

[Triniquint]

As an England supporter, I am aware England went from RWC winners in 2003, to the pits after that. They were rubbish, and pitiable. The other home nations passed them by, especially Ireland and Wales. Now, however, since SL took over, they are forming something good, and whilst not the real deal by any stretch, they are doing what is required of them and winning. To see this after a decade of rubbish is heartening. It is always swings and roundabouts, and now England seem t obe on the upswing, which is pleasing to a supporter. I was terrified watching the Ireland game, and given how good Ireland have been recently, England did well to win. The Scots always up their game when playing England, and England did well to beat them. Yesterday's game against France also showed England have developed a winning attitude and overcame a team that could have damaged them big style. But they arre grinding out the wins, and with this team coherence to do so, confidence will grow along with ability. Which, by the way, they proved they had when, with nothing to lose, they hammered the ABs. Of course, it was then announced they did so because the ABs had some nuovo virus or something - lol. We can't win really can we? and the only time fans of the other teams are happy is when we lose. But were not losing (yet), even if we win ugly...... and that'll do for me.

 

[nosevi]

I can't agree with this. More numbers + Money being poured into the game = Higher chance of producing better players, it is naive to think it does not. Look at the olympics, USA, GB and China always are on top of the medals tables. Why? Because of large populations and good infrastructure.

The olympics could be a good example but wouldn't Yorkshire have been about 12th if it had been a country in its own right, just being pipped by Japan and Australia. Look at the population - go figure. I think it has a little to do with the popularity as well as the population numbers and money. You're always going to get stand out athletes in any country regardless of how big it is. In New Zealand many of them play Rugby. In Western Samoa they probably all play Rugby, maybe similar on Tonga. The point is it's pretty difficult to pin it all on population numbers and money spent - it's more complicated than that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I can't agree with this. More numbers + Money being poured into the game = Higher chance of producing better players, it is naive to think it does not. Look at the olympics, USA, GB and China always are on top of the medals tables. Why? Because of large populations and good infrastructure.

Obviously, but there is a reason why the USA dominates huge swathes of Athletics but not the sprints.
That is taken by Jamaica because huge numbers of sprinters in the USA compete in the NFL, because it is the dominant sport in the states, whereas sprinting is the dominant sport in Jamaica.

How dominant a sport is in a country will determine how successful the top level of that sport is.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Obviously, but there is a reason why the USA dominates huge swathes of Athletics but not the sprints.
That is taken by Jamaica because huge numbers of sprinters in the USA compete in the NFL, because it is the dominant sport in the states, whereas sprinting is the dominant sport in Jamaica.

How dominant a sport is in a country will determine how successful the top level of that sport is.

Then why are Australia so strong in rugby union when it's their fourth most popular sport? Why are England generally quite strong? again 4th most popular sport? How come can only Ireland compete every 2nd or 3rd generation even though it is our 4th most popular sport? Why don't Wales dominate in the 6nations when it is Wales most popular sport?

 

[ratsapprentice]

RU is Australia's 3rd most popular sport isn't it? And even so RL, AFL and RU have reasonably similar percentage shares of interest and is far more engrained in the public consciousness. They do lack depth though.
Wales does very often dominate the 6N.
RU is the second most popular sport in England, by a long way after football. But the high overall number of players makes up for the lack of quality lost through football's domination of professional sport.
Ireland's national team does okay, and the provinces will be there or thereabouts every year in Europe.

 

[dullonien]

Why don't Wales dominate in the 6nations when it is Wales most popular sport?

Football is Wales' most popular sport, and by quite a distance, especially if we're talking about player numbers.

 

[Teh Mite]

I'd be surprised if rugby is the 2nd most popular sport. Forgetting the passtimes which are classified as spots (i.e. fishing), I'd expect football, cricket and tennis all rank about rugby in popularity. Then there's Motorsport to consider.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Not a chance is RU the second most popular sport in England. Cricket is well ahead - and probably Tennis like Mite said.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Football is Wales' most popular sport, and by quite a distance, especially if we're talking about player numbers.

Seconded, especially with the success of Swansea and Cardiff. Add to that, that Schools in Wales are now more football based than rugby ... especially in PE lessons.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Football is Wales' most popular sport, and by quite a distance, especially if we're talking about player numbers.

Oh yeah, I read national sport and got it mixed up.

 

[Patchey]

Football is everywhere's most popular sport, sigh...

 

[j'nuh]

Wales and Ireland were and are good for NH standards, England circa 2003 were world class and now perhaps have the potential to be world class...there is a difference.

At most 5 players of the current England team would make the Welsh 2008 grand slam XV. We aren't anywhere near the "potential to be world class" tag. One win against an off NZ and wins against a struggling France, an Ireland that had a shocker for simple mistakes (dropping the ball etc.) and a relatively decent win against Scotland, and suddenly there's no memory that we lost 3/4 games to the Springboks last year and a lost against a weakened Australia at home.

Only Italy have a weaker back 3 than we do this 6N, our scrum is looking weak, no particularly inspiring players at loosehead or hooker, the balance of the backrow goes into whack when Morgan is injured, Youngs still has big limitations to his game and still nowhere near the player he was when he broke into England, Barritt is one-dimensional, Farrell still not the person to unlock a defense etc.

 

[Peat]

At most 5 players of the current England team would make the Welsh 2008 grand slam XV. We aren't anywhere near the "potential to be world class" tag. One win against an off NZ and wins against a struggling France, an Ireland that had a shocker for simple mistakes (dropping the ball etc.) and a relatively decent win against Scotland, and suddenly there's no memory that we lost 3/4 games to the Springboks last year and a lost against a weakened Australia at home.

Only Italy have a weaker back 3 than we do this 6N, our scrum is looking weak, no particularly inspiring players at loosehead or hooker, the balance of the backrow goes into whack when Morgan is injured, Youngs still has big limitations to his game and still nowhere near the player he was when he broke into England, Barritt is one-dimensional, Farrell still not the person to unlock a defense etc.

Hark at Mr Doom and Gloom!

We have the systems, belief and culture of a world class team, just a matter of players developing - this is a very young and inexperienced team, let us not forget.

Our back three is greatly weakened by Foden's absence recovering from injury fully and Ashton's complete crash in form, one of those comes back properly into the reckoning and May/Wade/Eastmond cracks it and we're in business.

Corbs is a very good loosehead when fit, Marler and Vunipola are two amazing prospects who are becoming more and more comfortable. Youngs could be a very good hooker once he's done learning the position, if not Haywood and Buchanan are immense future prospects.

When Vunipola the Younger irons out his problems our back-row will be fine again. You're being overly critical of Youngs. Twelvetrees will replace Barritt once he's got his positioning up to scratch. Farrell's still learning and if he doesn't Burns will have h is place. etc.etc

Believe. We're movin' on up now.

 

[Largejanner]

We have the systems, belief and culture of a world class team, just a matter of players developing - this is a very young and inexperienced team, let us not forget.

Spot on Peat!

Who am I, Who am I,
I am the dust of the glorious dead that will not settle,
I am a triumphal echo born of Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt
Where my enemies knew too well my mettle,

I am the pull on the yew bending longbow
The victory roll on Drake's defiant drum,
The divine wind that blew the Armada through the channel
And onwards then to kingdom come,

I am the powder and the shot
Of brave Horatio's bold broadside,
That dispatched his foe homeward bound
As flotsam on the returning Trafalgar tide,

I am the sorrow of battle won
On the blood soaked field at Waterloo,
I am the bugle call for the valiant fallen
That never made it through,

I am the sunlight on the six hundred sabres
Charging through the valley to open up deaths door,
I am the ghostly jingle of bit and bridle
From a broken brigade that rides on for evermore,

My Father's Father took a bullet at the slaughter that was passchendaele
Yet denying his wounds lived on to fight again,
My Father stood fast with the Durham's and held the line
Before the guns rolled back from Sedjenaine,

My standard is the bloodied cross of Christ
To which my patron saint did give his name,
It denotes a way, of truth, and of liberty
Of which no other can proclaim,

The world speaks my language,
And it is set in stone,
I serve my Queen and Country
With every loyal ounce of flesh and bone,

I am the thin red line that will not yield
I am that far off corner of a foreign field
I am an Englishman!

[h=2]J. Armstrong[/h]