England Squad

[j'nuh]

This isn't Yorkshire cricket in the 70's,

Also while youre having a go can I point out that of your starting line up on Saturday not one player was born in the county of Gloucestershire so I think its unwise to slate Tonga-uiha for not being a Northampton-ian when your side is hardly an army of Gloucester natives

what nickdnz said

FWIW, I live in Yorkshire, so don't really care for only regional players playing for a club. I just don't get why person X takes it so personally when a player represents person X at international level, but not at club level.

In the not too recent past, the vast majority of people lived and died in their country. Back then, with some exceptions, nationality was fairly easy to gauge: where were they born and what nationalities are their parents/grandparents? But since the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the world has moved on in that respect. Go into any university in UK and consider the contingent of non-UK nationals. Not all will stay, but a lot will. These people who do want to stay, what do we call them? They exist within our cultural sphere, adapt to our lifestyle, pay taxes like anyone else, work the same jobs as us etc., and they do it willingly. These people have to be British - to say otherwise would, imo, be offensive. But if we stay with the archaic notion that nationality is birth and heritage, then how can we consider them British? (Also, I hate the idea that people have to ditch their old nationality to make room for their new one. Dual-nationalities are fine. Obviously, any foreign person settling in the UK will retain some some aspects of the culture they've left behind. But that doesn't stop them from taking up British cultures too.)

Obviously we need something stopping people from moving abroad in order to play international rugby, but we also need to retain the idea that a person can adopt a nationality. I see an argument for upping to 5 years to qualify, but players who come through an academy in a nation should be available for that nation from the get go.

I think there is a bit of a difference though. Since the game is professional it's only natural that clubs (which are buisnesses) employ their best options rather than just represent a county. National teams on the other hand have a larger responsibility to their nation to pick players from the nation, especially when there are so many options to select from. I do believe however that while grandparents or three years of residency is some what of a joke, you can consider yourself English without being born in England.

One of my friends has one Welsh grandparent and is otherwise completely English (both parents English, rest of grandparents English, born in England). He has never lived in Wales, and even supports the English football team. But because his Welsh grandfather got him into rugby, he's supported Welsh rugby (Wales and Ospreys) for as long as he's been into rugby. If he were a professional rugby player, I'd be gutted for him being told that he can't play for Wales because he's English.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Who comes next after Paice? I'm really not sure. The only Hookers I can think of are:

Tom Lindsay - Poor throwing, about the same as Tom Young
Not a great scrummager.
Great in the loose.

Jamie George - Is he even playing at all for Saracens? I get the feeling not. And you can't play internationally if you're not playing for your club.

Never thought I'd be saying this but... I wish Lee Mears would come back...

Also, Robson over Launchbury? Nah mate

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I can understand Robson being in the squad, he's a great lock forward.
Hhhooowwweeevvveeerrr not as a replacement for Lawes - we lost our "grunt" and brought in another lineout guy.
Should've been Launchbury or Garvey, who is playing very well at the moment after coming back from injury.


Tommy Taylor for England!

 

[Peat]

Next after Paice, should it come to that, should be Buchanan imo.

Olyy, he's a very useful player at club level alright - just he's looked meh at Saxons and looks too small for international level. I'd be unhappy enough about him as Parling's replacement, if it came to it, although I'd accept it made a bit of sense. As Lawes' replacement, it taketh the ****.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Matt Mullan has been called up for Marler, who is an injury doubt.

Big fan of Mullan, but Marler has improved so much in the past year he'll be a loss (along with Corbisiero).

Mullan was having problems with Tony Buckley, of all people, last week as well...

 

[nickdnz]

One of my friends has one Welsh grandparent and is otherwise completely English (both parents English, rest of grandparents English, born in England). He has never lived in Wales, and even supports the English football team. But because his Welsh grandfather got him into rugby, he's supported Welsh rugby (Wales and Ospreys) for as long as he's been into rugby. If he were a professional rugby player, I'd be gutted for him being told that he can't play for Wales because he's English.

See, I wouldn't. For years I supported the Brizillian football team (when the All Whites matches were never televised), but I think it would be cruel for any Brizillian kid not to be able play for their country because someone from the outside was a fan. That and I'm a pretty average footballer. If he loved Wales and Welsh rugby so much that he deserves to be in their rugby team - then he should probably live in Wales.

 

[Teh Mite]

In that instance, at least there is heritage linking him to Wales through a grand parent. Its a world of difference to moving somewhere as a half-adolescent (or worse, adult) then claiming the place.

The nationality on A birth certificate should count above anything, not adopted nationality. While it may come across as "cruel" and "unfair" to tell (eg) a Kiwi they're not English and have no ties here, neither by birthplace or bloodline, so they cannot represent England in sport it's the only way any system can be upheald. Test rugby is nationalistic by its very nature, sadly too many people want to dilute culture and heritage by calling it "multiculturalism" ( (c) Leftys), therefore its a human right to choose your nationality.

What if George Ford decides he wants to become an All Black? He's good enough and more likely to win something with them...

 

[nickdnz]

In that instance, at least there is heritage linking him to Wales through a grand parent. Its a world of difference to moving somewhere as a half-adolescent (or worse, adult) then claiming the place.

The nationality on A birth certificate should count above anything, not adopted nationality. While it may come across as "cruel" and "unfair" to tell (eg) a Kiwi they're not English and have no ties here, neither by birthplace or bloodline, so they cannot represent England in sport it's the only way any system can be upheald. Test rugby is nationalistic by its very nature, sadly too many people want to dilute culture and heritage by calling it "multiculturalism" ( (c) Leftys), therefore its a human right to choose your nationality.

What if George Ford decides he wants to become an All Black? He's good enough and more likely to win something with them...

See, by your logic a two month old child who was born in South Africa to a family with no English heritage, who then moves and lives 72 years in England, is less English than myself. That seems mental to me. Yes I think Riki Flutey should not have been allowed to play for England (or to be fair Thomas Waldrom - both of whom played for NZ Maori), but I do however think someone like Ayoola Erinle has every right to call himself English. He probably feels more English than Nigerian. Heritage is arbitary to be fair - I think that logic is quite an archaic way of seperating "us" from "them".

 

[Teh Mite]

It has to be one rule for all otherwise you'll have people continuing to do a Flutey.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I think there is one rule that is the same for all, while at the same time taking in consideration the way societies are differently built to each other: if you have a passport of a given country, you can play for that country's national side (keeping the "locked in" rules).
The way a country delivers a passport pretty much reflects the country's vision on "nationality". Plus, you're pretty sure that authorities won't deliver a passport just to make that player eligible... That's the way it works in football, and I think it works pretty well.

edit: I just saw that PR agrees with me.

 

[Big Ewis]

Actually guys, it's pretty simple.
Culturally/in terms of social/religious identity...etc...: it doesn't even matter too much how (say) English you are. In sports, it's where you were trained, the playing culture of which country, what you grew up with that makes you English. Tuilagi for e.g. was just picked out and dropped in England. There's almost nothing English about him, yeah sure he lived there for a while...the guy barely makes any sense speaking English, wasn't born there or spent his early years there...etc.

Arabic fans will always tell you that Zidane is an "arab", or "one of us" as they say, that he's algerian. Even though I don't give a flying f00k about the sport in question, I can say this: he was born in France, had played in French clubs, spent his childhood and adolescence there, and ultimately of course, was part of the French national team.

Then there's the ultimate perfidy: Basketball European tournament (FIBA). Serge Ibaka, a Congo-born (but Belgian by post-colonial extension) plays in the NBA...summer comes, the Euro-tournament begins, and all of a sudden he'd acquired, oh how strange, a Spanish passport just like a month 1/2 before the Euro thing starts. He plays for them and of course helps them win it all against France in the Final.

But about Tuilagi: that particular route I think is...well ambiguous. He's not English at all in any way but the few times he spent there. He did get trained there I understand for almost all of his rugby...I suppose he's almost legit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

the guy barely makes any sense speaking English

That's just a Leicester accent though
Which he does have, by the way.

Tuilagi says he considers himself English with Samoan roots.
Source: I asked him.


Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Patchey]

I'm pretty sure Ben Botica has a British Passport...


Robshaw's eye injury looks pretty awful, got to hope it isn't a broken socket.

 

[nickdnz]

It has to be one rule for all otherwise you'll have people continuing to do a Flutey.

Generally I agree (there is no country which benefits less from loose eligability rules in rugby, than New Zealand). But I think surely you'd agree extending the residency to five years is more than appropreate. Dylan Hartley has now lived in England for almost a decade, do you not feel that he is English? I'm pretty sure he does. Ayoola Erinle moved to England at 18 months old, I doubt he even remembers what Nigeria looks like. He has an English accent, pays taxes and was educated in England. Despite being a fairly average player, I don't see how you can say he isn't English enough. England is likely all he knows (and a little French when he played for Biarritz, but my point stands).

I'm pretty sure Ben Botica has a British Passport...

Robshaw's eye injury looks pretty awful, got to hope it isn't a broken socket.

He can also play for Crotia. His dad who was an All Black (Frano Botica) played for the All Blacks, Kiwis, Wigan Warriors (where Ben Botica probably could have got the passport), Castleford Tigers, North Harbour, Chiefs and Crotia.

Speaking of Ben Botica, how is he doing at the Quins. I follow the Quins but haven't seen many matches this season cause my usual provider got a cease and desist...I heard Evans has an injury and Botica is getting game time. I quite rate him when he was at North Harbour, is he doing well?

 

[Peat]

Hartley always qualified on ancestry anyway nick, which helps make him feel vaguely English.

As for Botica - he's looked good so far. Distribution's nice, goal kicking's reliable and he's a big lad if he decides to have a break. Hence why people are mentioning his passport!

Personally, I'd support lengthening the residency period to 5 years.

 

[Patchey]

Agreed, he has looked very promising. I'm not seriously suggesting England try and claim him, although technically as he has a passport (and presumably has lived here for over five years?) there would be a case for it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Think Botica might have been born here, actually - his Dad played rugby league here in the late 80s to late 90s.

So could have been born here, lived here for almost 10years, gone back to NZ played rugby up to ITM level, gone to France for a year and then to Quins.

 

[Draggs]

Think Botica might have been born here, actually - his Dad played rugby league here in the late 80s to late 90s.

So could have been born here, lived here for almost 10years, gone back to NZ played rugby up to ITM level, gone to France for a year and then to Quins.

Takapuna (North Island), apparently. Frano played for Llanelli RFC for a bit, as well.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aha, should've thought to look somewhere other than wikipedia (he doesn't have a page) to see his stats

But yeah, I guess he has a passport due to spending X amount of years here growing up while his Dad played league (and potentially an English Granny, I suppose).

 

[j'nuh]

tbh, it's premature to be talking about Botica. He had how many good games for Quins? And when Evans comes back, he'll be back to the bench, and could be for the next three years if both accept contracts at the Quins.

We're more than covered for now with Burns and Flood imo. Flood has shown he can be a great player, and Burns is a little experience away from being an obvious starter. (A good explanation of where he's at is that he's got all the talent to be a top fly-half, but can be prone to trying to force match-winning moves on too many phases.) Then in a year or two, we'll start talking about Ford.