England Squad

[Teh Mite]

First of all, you said it about the Saracens squad posted above:

George, Borthwick, Fraser, Wray, Kruis all born in England.
Vunipola has been in the UK since 8 and England since 17(?), played for U18s and U20s England squads.
Stevens has been in the country for 10 years.
Botha has been in the country for 8 years.

Which of these aren't English? Would you dare tell them to their faces that they weren't?

ffs, we have lower standards to enter the military than we do our sports teams. People from the Commonwealth can join without spending any time in the UK. Officers require 5 years spent in the UK, but most soldier roles require much less, and from what I can tell, some roles don't require any residency period. Do you protest that these people aren't English?

Maybe it's because I require more from what I see as a nationality, but being English isn't about being born and raised - it's about ability to accept and integrate in local communities and accept or even involve yourself in other cultures. I don't give a crap about birthright nationality. I feel better represented by someone who wasn't born in England and takes their civic responsibilities well (votes, pays taxes, integrates), than I do those who complain about these people "not being English".


It's despicable that a guy with a wife and a fourth child on the way wanted to take them back to their extended family. I hate parents who need that kind of support.


Why are Tonga'uiha's motives for playing for Northampton any more pure than Flutey's for England?

Last time I checked, Tiny is a proud Tongan who plays test rugby for Tonga. Your argument is invalid.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Paice and Robson called up:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20112274

 

[Peat]

Paice and Robson called up:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20112274

Did not want Robson.

Would rather have Paice than edit: Youngs! Christ. Not Hartley. Hartley's our only international hooker. Amazed no one picked me up for that...

I do not agree with the 3 year residency rule. I don't think it's a good test of belonging. But I think for the purposes for deciding how English a pack is, the IRB's definition is in many ways the most useful. And, much as I dislike them, they are the rules as stated.

And, while I would change the rules to stop cases like Riki Flutey, I have no objections to Mouritz Botha, who came here ages ago, has been shaped by here, and is as eligible for a British passport as any person here.

Wait. Rephrase that. I have no objection to Botha as a person... shame he's not more precise in his work rate.

 

[j'nuh]

Last time I checked, Tiny is a proud Tongan who plays test rugby for Tonga. Your argument is invalid.

I'm wondering why you're okay with people not from Northampton representing Northampton, but not okay with people not from England representing England.

 

[McTallshort]

Paice and Robson called up:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20112274

Pleased for Robson but Plaice is not an international Hooker which leaves us very very bare

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, but apart from Hartley who is?
Paice is probably Saxons level at best, but then that's still 10 steps up from Youngs, so he will do to plug the gap until Hartley's back (and Gray and Webber are fit).

Fingers crossed Hartley's scan shows nothing's wrong and this is all just precautionary.

 

[McTallshort]

Aye, but apart from Hartley who is?
Paice is probably Saxons level at best, but then that's still 10 steps up from Youngs, so he will do to plug the gap until Hartley's back (and Gray and Webber are fit).

Fingers crossed Hartley's scan shows nothing's wrong and this is all just precautionary.

No one! Youngs is way off yet perhaps Mears could be sweet talked back into International rugby for 4 games

 

[Patchey]

Isn't Tom Youngs some sort of Rowntree protegee/favourite? If so I can see him starting over Paice if Hartley really is broken. The thought of Youngs throwing it against the kind of line out that South Africa and New Zealand have is terrifying.


On residency and eligibility I wonder sometimes why no one seems to get eggy about Brad Thorn representing Austrialia and New Zealand...

 

[Patchey]

Also, did anyone see how bad Robshaw's injury looked?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not too sure - took a boot to the face (from one of his own players that was clearing out a ruck). He stayed down after hit, and medics etc. came on, but walked off the pitch fine, initially for a blood sub but then didn't come back.
Could've been kept off due to concussion (they're being very strict with that from this season on) - hopefully will be OK for the internationals.

 

[Teh Mite]

I'm wondering why you're okay with people not from Northampton representing Northampton, but not okay with people not from England representing England.

One is a club. On the free market.

The other is a representitive national side alledegely representing the cream of that nations produce, named so and based upon national boarders. Not cherry picking forigen imports.


Your argument is still invalid.



Re: Youngs - he's a fast centre shoehorned into the 2 shirt. Think a poor mans Brits. With a poxy aggressive attitude and man united syndrome because of his Leicester links.
Paice just is crap.

Joe Grey needs the call up if Hartley isn't available.

 

[McTallshort]

Also, did anyone see how bad Robshaw's injury looked?

I do hope its not serious, he is an outstanding player and captain and with Hartley missing the one real leader England still have.

 

[Peat]

Joe Grey needs the call up if Hartley isn't available.

Gray is out injured himself.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Thing with Youngs is he possibly could've possibly made a Brits-esque centre when he first converted, but they've been bulking him up so much he's lost a load of pace/agility so is just your run of the mill gym-monkey forward, but with the inability to do the bare minimum his position requires (throw in at lineouts).

 

[Peat]

Thing with Youngs is he possibly could've possibly made a Brits-esque centre when he first converted, but they've been bulking him up so much he's lost a load of pace/agility so is just your run of the mill gym-monkey forward, but with the inability to do the bare minimum his position requires (throw in at lineouts).

He's 5'9" - if he wasn't very bulked, you'd have to question whether he'd be strong enough for the international game.

The real issue are his lineout darts though. If he was throwing at Hartley's level of accuracy, everyone would be happy enough. He isn't, and shouldn't be involved in the main squad at the match day 23 at this stage (to repeat everyone else...)

 

[nickdnz]

On residency and eligibility I wonder sometimes why no one seems to get eggy about Brad Thorn representing Austrialia and New Zealand...

Probably because they are two different sports for two different times in his life. He was born in NZ and lived here till he was 8. He then moved to Australia and played all his league over there until he was in his mid twenties when he wanted to give rugby union a crack in the country he was born in. He says multiple times that he loves both countries (though NOW feels he is a bit more of a New Zealander). He certainly gave an awful lot to both countries and both games.

 

[Patchey]

Probably because they are two different sports for two different times in his life. He was born in NZ and lived here till he was 8. He then moved to Australia and played all his league over there until he was in his mid twenties when he wanted to give rugby union a crack in the country he was born in. He says multiple times that he loves both countries (though NOW feels he is a bit more of a New Zealander). He certainly gave an awful lot to both countries and both games.

I'm no disputing any of his commitment to either sport or country or what he's given to the game. I was just raising it because it shows that someone can represent two countries and not be a traitor/turn coat/money grabber or whatever people want to call them...

Of course like you said, it was over both codes.

 

[SelimNiai]

I'm wondering why you're okay with people not from Northampton representing Northampton, but not okay with people not from England representing England.

This isn't Yorkshire cricket in the 70's,

Also while youre having a go can I point out that of your starting line up on Saturday not one player was born in the county of Gloucestershire so I think its unwise to slate Tonga-uiha for not being a Northampton-ian when your side is hardly an army of Gloucester natives

 

[nickdnz]

This isn't Yorkshire cricket in the 70's,

Also while youre having a go can I point out that of your starting line up on Saturday not one player was born in the county of Gloucestershire so I think its unwise to slate Tonga-uiha for not being a Northampton-ian when your side is hardly an army of Gloucester natives

I don't think he was having a crack at Northampton - the point he was making was that it seems strange for people to dismiss players playing for a national team who weren't born in England as not-English and thus unworthy to represent them, when clubs representing counties and communities don't get similar scrutiny.

I think there is a bit of a difference though. Since the game is professional it's only natural that clubs (which are buisnesses) employ their best options rather than just represent a county. National teams on the other hand have a larger responsibility to their nation to pick players from the nation, especially when there are so many options to select from. I do believe however that while grandparents or three years of residency is some what of a joke, you can consider yourself English without being born in England.

 

[Peat]

I don't think he was having a crack at Northampton - the point he was making was that it seems strange for people to dismiss players playing for a national team who weren't born in England as not-English and thus unworthy to represent them, when clubs representing counties and communities don't get similar scrutiny.

I think there is a bit of a difference though. Since the game is professional it's only natural that clubs (which are buisnesses) employ their best options rather than just represent a county. National teams on the other hand have a larger responsibility to their nation to pick players from the nation, especially when there are so many options to select from. I do believe however that while grandparents or three years of residency is some what of a joke, you can consider yourself English without being born in England.

The problem is national teams are also businesses. They have a duty to finance themselves, and also to raise money to help the game in general. Success is a large variable in deciding how much money they get. Then you have a number of employees whose livelihood depend on the success of the national team i.e. the coaching staff. And I think that really, hand on heart, most fans care more about the success of their national team rather than the extent it represents what their country is about. I've heard - indeed I've vented - a fair about of anger at various selections at the year but I've heard no one say they'll stop going. I've heard people saying they'll stop going to support their national team due to it being a boring, depressing experience due to the quality of play and lack of result.

I'd love for there to be a difference, but realistically the only difference is that England have stricter rules on eligibility for players they could use - and both entities will strive to do the best they can within the full limits of the rules, because there are no points on offer for taking a moral high ground.