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England Six Nations thread

Pretty fair IMO... would have given Marler a 7.5 though - quietly very impressive.
Given how often a young player fails to progress until it's too late, it's been very gratifying that Joe has improved in the way that he has.
 
Agree with pretty much everything and also with the upping of Marlers score.

For me, David Attwood has been a revelation, having seen him pretty rarely prior to this tournament.
 
Agreed with all of it but Mako down to 6 because if you can't scrummage than I don't care how much you can do round the pitch. With Attwood I'm sure we will see him and Launchbury together which will really help us at scrum time.
 
Cheers guys. I think Mako to 6 would be a little harsh because it was only in the last game that he was really caught out in the scrum.

I'm assuming we'll see Attwood/Laucnbury start in NZ with Lawes probably tied up in the premiership final. Who is our lock on the bench then I wonder?

Anyway, the backs:

Danny Care:The lifeblood of England's creativity. Five tries (I think?), a number of assists and a great improvement over Dickson and Youngs in terms of his speed. Accuracy of service and box kicking could still have been tighter. 8.5

Lee Dickson
: Solid but unimaginative. Dickson can be relied to come on and do the basics right, albeit a little slowly at time. Doesn't offer any creative spark or unpredictability. Was unfortunate to be brought on against France when Care should have stayed on the pitch, I though Dickson was unfairly blame for England's inability to get a final score. 6

Owen Farrell: A mate of mine summarised Farrell's performances this tournament very well the other week. 'I don't like him as a player but you can tell he is really trying hard, which make me feel bad for not liking him'. He has his admirably qualities, a rock in defense, pesky at the breakdown and his kicking seems to have finally reached the Wilkinsonesque proportions the media have given him. He is also clearly trying to be more attacking, with some success. A team doesn't score 14 (I think) tries in a tournament with a complete dullard at ten. However he still passes too the man, rather than ahead of the man, and is asking for a Weir style interception with some of his long balls. Gets a 7 larger because of his kicking, otherwise would have been lower.

George Ford
: Hard to rate given that he only played twelve minutes of rugby. Looking just at him cameo against Italy the obvious conclusion is that he is ahead of Farrell in attack by a country mile. If Twelvetrees had stayed on and Ford come on when Manu did I am confident we would have score more. As it was his little break to set up Robshaw was magical, and something Farrell would never full off. 7 (would be higher if we'd seen him tested defensively and he'd coped).

Billy Twelvetrees: Got a lot of flak early on in the tournament but I think he's really grown into the 12 shirt. We've been crying out for him to get some game time for well over a year now so I never really bought into the idea that a few average performances should have seen him swapped for Eastmond. Considering the pressure he's been under at Glos I thought it was to be expected that he wasn't going to waltz into the England side and produce his best rugby straight away. I think Lancaster's faith in him has been rewarded. Once he stopped falling over he showed an excellent all round game. Good distribution, strong carrying, willingness to hit rucks and the ability to contain top class opposie numbers (Roberts, Fofana and D'Arcy). 8

Luther Burrell
: The find of the tournament. We were all a bit wary of him at 13 I think but he has been excellent. One defensive wobble on the wing against France (not his fault, he should never have been out there!) and that was it. Combined running much better lines than any 13 we've had recently with the ability to fix the man and pass! Sounds simple but after two season on Manuball it was like mana from heaven. IMO he has the shirt. 8.5

Manu Tuilagi
: Nice to see him back but He's going to have to up his game if he wants to get back into the starting XV. The Italy game showed his is still a destructive force carrying the ball but also that he hasn't picked up any real passing skills during his lay off. Out attack lost structure and the wide men were starved of the ball almost from the moment he came on. Must do better. 6

Jack Nowell:
Bright start to his England career. Was patient, did a lot of good defensive work (not many wingers tackle Picamole!) and scored a well taken and well deserved try against Italy. Really in contention for a place in the XV when Yarde and Wade are fit.
7.5

Jonny May
: Made a lot more meters that his sideways running suggests! When he found a space he looked good and was integral in some of England's best attacking moves of the tournamnet. Often seemed to have the ball hospital passed to him when we were out of ideas though, which didn't help. I think he side wise running style can work, he just needs more time to get used to test rugby where defense is tighter. Whether he'll get that time on the other hand... 7

Mike Brown:
10. Need I say more?

Alex Goode: At fault for two French tries that probably cost us the Grand Slam. I feel for him because having seen him play ten at Sarries I've come to the conclusion that he is really a fly-half being forced to play at fifteen. Where he playing 10 he'd probably be, behind Ford, our second choice on merit. As it is his career looks to be over unless Brown is injured. 5.5




One last point. My real disappointment with England this tournament was the strategy with subs and the selection of the bench, especially in the backs. Why did we have Barritt and Goode on the bench in France? Why didn't Ford get blooded in Scotland? Why did Youngs come on at Murryfield when out line out was winning us so much ball? Why are so many 'token' changes made for the last few minutes? Most pressingly why, with the game easily won and a score to chase, did Ford not come on at the same time as Manu in Italy? And why move Farrell to 12? Why didn't Attwood get more time? These are all questions I can find no satisfactory answer to.

It seems to be more of an issue with the backs, where I've long suspected Lancaster pays too much attention to Farrell Sr. but the forwards aren't immune either. Very rarely will a player come on for the last five minutes and make any real impression on the game. Bring them on earlier, give them time to get into the game and surely there will be a greater benefit both for the team and the individual? Clive Woodward was talking cr*p when he said there should have been no changes in Rome. We needed to freshen up our attack but not by taking off one of our players of the tournament (Burrell) and bringing on a crash ball 13 with hardly any game time in the last six months! The fascination with keeping Farrell on the pitch, both when he was cramping up in Paris and when he moved to 12 in Rome, is also galling.
 
Never thought I'd say this but your score on Farrell is unfairly low he did his bit in attack (still can improve but it's not his natural game but improvement so far has been massive) plus if you had given ford a higher score than him when the latter had 20 minutes against Italy when we were 30 points up would have been a bit of a joke imo Farrell was really good against Ireland and wales and was at no fault during the France game . Only when players are tested by the best can they really be fairly judged

Your best bet would have been to leave Ford and Tuilagi off the list for now
 
Cheers guys. I think Mako to 6 would be a little harsh because it was only in the last game that he was really caught out in the scrum.

I'm assuming we'll see Attwood/Laucnbury start in NZ with Lawes probably tied up in the premiership final. Who is our lock on the bench then I wonder?

Anyway, the backs:

Danny Care:The lifeblood of England's creativity. Five tries (I think?), a number of assists and a great improvement over Dickson and Youngs in terms of his speed. Accuracy of service and box kicking could still have been tighter. 8.5

Lee Dickson
: Solid but unimaginative. Dickson can be relied to come on and do the basics right, albeit a little slowly at time. Doesn't offer any creative spark or unpredictability. Was unfortunate to be brought on against France when Care should have stayed on the pitch, I though Dickson was unfairly blame for England's inability to get a final score. 6

Owen Farrell: A mate of mine summarised Farrell's performances this tournament very well the other week. 'I don't like him as a player but you can tell he is really trying hard, which make me feel bad for not liking him'. He has his admirably qualities, a rock in defense, pesky at the breakdown and his kicking seems to have finally reached the Wilkinsonesque proportions the media have given him. He is also clearly trying to be more attacking, with some success. A team doesn't score 14 (I think) tries in a tournament with a complete dullard at ten. However he still passes too the man, rather than ahead of the man, and is asking for a Weir style interception with some of his long balls. Gets a 7 larger because of his kicking, otherwise would have been lower.

George Ford
: Hard to rate given that he only played twelve minutes of rugby. Looking just at him cameo against Italy the obvious conclusion is that he is ahead of Farrell in attack by a country mile. If Twelvetrees had stayed on and Ford come on when Manu did I am confident we would have score more. As it was his little break to set up Robshaw was magical, and something Farrell would never full off. 7 (would be higher if we'd seen him tested defensively and he'd coped).

Billy Twelvetrees: Got a lot of flak early on in the tournament but I think he's really grown into the 12 shirt. We've been crying out for him to get some game time for well over a year now so I never really bought into the idea that a few average performances should have seen him swapped for Eastmond. Considering the pressure he's been under at Glos I thought it was to be expected that he wasn't going to waltz into the England side and produce his best rugby straight away. I think Lancaster's faith in him has been rewarded. Once he stopped falling over he showed an excellent all round game. Good distribution, strong carrying, willingness to hit rucks and the ability to contain top class opposie numbers (Roberts, Fofana and D'Arcy). 8

Luther Burrell
: The find of the tournament. We were all a bit wary of him at 13 I think but he has been excellent. One defensive wobble on the wing against France (not his fault, he should never have been out there!) and that was it. Combined running much better lines than any 13 we've had recently with the ability to fix the man and pass! Sounds simple but after two season on Manuball it was like mana from heaven. IMO he has the shirt. 8.5

Manu Tuilagi
: Nice to see him back but He's going to have to up his game if he wants to get back into the starting XV. The Italy game showed his is still a destructive force carrying the ball but also that he hasn't picked up any real passing skills during his lay off. Out attack lost structure and the wide men were starved of the ball almost from the moment he came on. Must do better. 6

Jack Nowell:
Bright start to his England career. Was patient, did a lot of good defensive work (not many wingers tackle Picamole!) and scored a well taken and well deserved try against Italy. Really in contention for a place in the XV when Yarde and Wade are fit.
7.5

Jonny May
: Made a lot more meters that his sideways running suggests! When he found a space he looked good and was integral in some of England's best attacking moves of the tournamnet. Often seemed to have the ball hospital passed to him when we were out of ideas though, which didn't help. I think he side wise running style can work, he just needs more time to get used to test rugby where defense is tighter. Whether he'll get that time on the other hand... 7

Mike Brown:
10. Need I say more?

Alex Goode: At fault for two French tries that probably cost us the Grand Slam. I feel for him because having seen him play ten at Sarries I've come to the conclusion that he is really a fly-half being forced to play at fifteen. Where he playing 10 he'd probably be, behind Ford, our second choice on merit. As it is his career looks to be over unless Brown is injured. 5.5




One last point. My real disappointment with England this tournament was the strategy with subs and the selection of the bench, especially in the backs. Why did we have Barritt and Goode on the bench in France? Why didn't Ford get blooded in Scotland? Why did Youngs come on at Murryfield when out line out was winning us so much ball? Why are so many 'token' changes made for the last few minutes? Most pressingly why, with the game easily won and a score to chase, did Ford not come on at the same time as Manu in Italy? And why move Farrell to 12? Why didn't Attwood get more time? These are all questions I can find no satisfactory answer to.

It seems to be more of an issue with the backs, where I've long suspected Lancaster pays too much attention to Farrell Sr. but the forwards aren't immune either. Very rarely will a player come on for the last five minutes and make any real impression on the game. Bring them on earlier, give them time to get into the game and surely there will be a greater benefit both for the team and the individual? Clive Woodward was talking cr*p when he said there should have been no changes in Rome. We needed to freshen up our attack but not by taking off one of our players of the tournament (Burrell) and bringing on a crash ball 13 with hardly any game time in the last six months! The fascination with keeping Farrell on the pitch, both when he was cramping up in Paris and when he moved to 12 in Rome, is also galling.

How on earth can you give ford 7 on the basis of 12 minutes?

Farrell gets a tough ride, but people forget he made line breaks against France and Scotland. It was his half break and offshoots that created Brown's 2nd try. And he was involved in almost everything yesterday some of his delayed passing was fantastic....

The lads working on his attacking game and catt seems to be bringing it out.

It takes a while for kids to settle and he started early. He needed to build his confidence, and he's come back from that lions tour with that. He's completely underrated.
 
I thought that would be a bit contentious...

I said right at the start of the 'forwards' post that i was rating everyone on their time played. Obviously that isn't perfect but in the short time Ford was on the pitch this tournament I believe he performed at a good 7/10 level. I guess for him its more of a 'match rating'. Even though I'm a big fan of his I would never have rated him higher because he wasn't tested defensively and didn't have to kick under pressure.

As for Farrell, maybe I am being a little harsh. As I said, be did three of the four things you expect from a good 10 very well. He kicked his goals (100% in the last two matches?), smashed people in defense and did what had to be done when involved in the breakdown. For me though, I think its the contrast between his attacking play and other options we have that results in him not getting a higher rating. Yes he has improved greatly but can he really be compared favourably to the little we saw of Ford? Does anyone truly believe we would have score fewer points in the Italy game with Ford or even Cips starting at 10? If you do then why?

I guess having seen some of talented, attacking 10s we have and then watching Farrell attack the gain line like he's being asked to dive head first into a sewer I'm always going to be a little biased against him.
 
Farrell performed at a much higher level than he has previously for England this tournament. His work in the rucks was awesome, I remember POC trying and failing to clear him out on one occasion for example. I have been a big critic of his but for the first time he impressed me this 6N, his pass timing seemed much better in attack too. He will never be a great creator at 10 but he does bring stuff to the England side and I think having a FH like him would be ideal for a player like Eastmond at 12 (who I really like). Farrell did a good job, credit where it is due.
 
Yeah I'm with the consensus that Farrell should have got a 8 out of 10. Though I do agree that Ford was very impressive against Italy with the Robshaw try I don't think that Farrell has that acceleration to just get past the first defender. Farrell beats player by picking clever lines and throwing dummies. Farrell and Ford played together at the U20's and I believe they thought that Ford would be more comfortable playing with someone who he has experience with.
Also the benching lock I would pick Kitchener/Kruis. But that's because I'm a sarries fan :)
 
Farrell performed at a much higher level than he has previously for England this tournament. His work in the rucks was awesome, I remember POC trying and failing to clear him out on one occasion for example. I have been a big critic of his but for the first time he impressed me this 6N, his pass timing seemed much better in attack too. He will never be a great creator at 10 but he does bring stuff to the England side and I think having a FH like him would be ideal for a player like Eastmond at 12 (who I really like). Farrell did a good job, credit where it is due.


Believe me I'm not suggesting he hasn't improved! I just don't think that improvement has taken him past a level of 'good but not great'. Also, if he is never going to be a great creator then you're right, we've got to pair him with creative centres and we should never more him out to twelve again!



I like Kruis, I could deal with that! The current Saxon's lock are him, Stooke and Matthews with Calum Clark also able to play there. I suspect Lancaster would probably pick Clark out of those lot, combination of his versitility and being a known quantity so to speak. Personally rather have any of the other three, although maybe Stooke is a little young to be thrown, Tour of Hell style, at the All Black. I guess they'll all be on the plane with the Saxons/midweek squad anyway.
 
Have I missed something? Why are we looking at replacing Attwood on the bench?
 
Have I missed something? Why are we looking at replacing Attwood on the bench?

On the basis that Attwood is starting with launchbery for the New Zealand game as lawes will be unable to play as he will probably be in the premiership final.
 
On the basis that Attwood is starting with launchbery for the New Zealand game as lawes will be unable to play as he will probably be in the premiership final.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah, of course - silly me!
Wilson with Attwood behind him will be mega in that first game.
Anyone know how long Cole's out for?
Even if Corbs is back by the start of summer he'd be with Saints for the first game, so that'd be Mullan on the bench again.
 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah, of course - silly me!
Wilson with Attwood behind him will be mega in that first game.
Anyone know how long Cole's out for?
Even if Corbs is back by the start of summer he'd be with Saints for the first game, so that'd be Mullan on the bench again.

Now he catches up! :p

Cole is a 'few months' I think according to Tigers but that's what thy said about Manu so who knows?

Assuming a Sarries/Saints final (best outcome IMO) it'll be Wilson/Youngs/Marler with Launchbury and Attwood behind. Not half bad as out 'second choice' tight five.
 
Now he catches up! :p

Cole is a 'few months' I think according to Tigers but that's what thy said about Manu so who knows?

Assuming a Sarries/Saints final (best outcome IMO) it'll be Wilson/Youngs/Marler with Launchbury and Attwood behind. Not half bad as out 'second choice' tight five.

Unless youngs still has the throwing ability to a particularly nervous drunkard with parkinsons...
 
Unless youngs still has the throwing ability to a particularly nervous drunkard with parkinsons...

See my comments on him previously. I still think the management will go with him, Lamcasters eternal weak spot being loudly to players. Rowntrees appears a bit more ruthless about cutting under performing guys but I get the impression Youngs is somewhat of a protege of his.

Still award, Webber or George will be on the bench. That's something.
 
For the first test and Crusaders match I want to see players like Dickie, Stooke, Robson, Cipriani, Eastmond, Daly, Watson. What players are you wanting to see in the midweek game and first test.

Is this for this thread or a new thread discussion ?
 
Trust Big E to get the thread for EOYT done less than 48 hours after the Six Nations is done!

I suspect the midweek test team will simply be the Saxons plus a few others as some Saxons player will have to be in the first test and therefore won't have time to recover for a mid-week game.

I reiterate my belief that whoever booker this tour should be shot.
 
I thought that would be a bit contentious...

I said right at the start of the 'forwards' post that i was rating everyone on their time played. Obviously that isn't perfect but in the short time Ford was on the pitch this tournament I believe he performed at a good 7/10 level. I guess for him its more of a 'match rating'. Even though I'm a big fan of his I would never have rated him higher because he wasn't tested defensively and didn't have to kick under pressure.

As for Farrell, maybe I am being a little harsh. As I said, be did three of the four things you expect from a good 10 very well. He kicked his goals (100% in the last two matches?), smashed people in defense and did what had to be done when involved in the breakdown. For me though, I think its the contrast between his attacking play and other options we have that results in him not getting a higher rating. Yes he has improved greatly but can he really be compared favourably to the little we saw of Ford? Does anyone truly believe we would have score fewer points in the Italy game with Ford or even Cips starting at 10? If you do then why?

I guess having seen some of talented, attacking 10s we have and then watching Farrell attack the gain line like he's being asked to dive head first into a sewer I'm always going to be a little biased against him.

But to put ford in would be lessening the first 3 you mentioned considerably to give a decent amount more attacking flair . I'd rather still with Farrell personally . He's improved his attacking a fair bit and still is a very good kicker, a rock in defense and a general pain in the bum at the breakdown
 

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