England Six Nations thread

[Patchey]

Woops, I did mean Slade, yeah.

Thought so!

He did okay for the Saxons, better than Burns at least. It would be interesting to see if he makes the toruing squad ahead of Burns. That would probably signify Burns being very much out in the cold.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Thought so!

He did okay for the Saxons, better than Burns at least. It would be interesting to see if he makes the toruing squad ahead of Burns. That would probably signify Burns being very much out in the cold.

Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see what happens with Burns over the summer.
If you want a "maverick" 10 then Cipriani is so far ahead of Burns in terms of form and consistency that it's no contest whatsoever.

I'm not sure whether they'll take 3 or 4 flyhalves - we only took 2 to Argentina, but with the AP clash taking out our first and (presumably) 3rd choice flyhalves in Faz and Myler we'll need two for the first game (and in case we lose one of Farrell/Myler in the final).

 

[Patchey]

I suspect there will br 4 fly-halves (Farrell, Ford, Cips, Myler) in the overall touring squad but that only two, Farrell and Ford, will part of the '1st XV' while the others, after the first test, are involved with the midweek squad. I wouldn't be opposed to Goode being fly-half cover, if that means someone else can take his current slot as replacement fullback.



I think the parallels between Burns and Ford are really interesting. Back in 2012 Ford was being hailed as the next great English fly-half and a lot of people were dissapointed that he didn't go to to South Africa. The same happened to Burns in 2012/13, with a lot of frustration that he was only on the fringes of the England set up.

Ford suffered a bit drop in form in his last season an Tigers but has bounced back after moving to Bath and is now our second choice. Burns is currently in a monumental slump but is moving to Tigers (ironically) and there is nothing to sugget he can't turn himself around like Ford did.

 

[goodNumber10]

I suspect there will br 4 fly-halves (Farrell, Ford, Cips, Myler) in the overall touring squad but that only two, Farrell and Ford, will part of the '1st XV' while the others, after the first test, are involved with the midweek squad. I wouldn't be opposed to Goode being fly-half cover, if that means someone else can take his current slot as replacement fullback.

I think the parallels between Burns and Ford are really interesting. Back in 2012 Ford was being hailed as the next great English fly-half and a lot of people were dissapointed that he didn't go to to South Africa. The same happened to Burns in 2012/13, with a lot of frustration that he was only on the fringes of the England set up.

Ford suffered a bit drop in form in his last season an Tigers but has bounced back after moving to Bath and is now our second choice. Burns is currently in a monumental slump but is moving to Tigers (ironically) and there is nothing to sugget he can't turn himself around like Ford did.

Ford being in the England squad now, is a direct result of him missing that 2012 SA tour. Lancaster and co put him on a physical development program to get him bulked up without losing his mobility etc... he wasn't really getting game time for Tigers but things like his defence etc... have come up because of that summer doing not much toher than lifting weights and sprint work.

 

[goodNumber10]

Thought so!

He did okay for the Saxons, better than Burns at least. It would be interesting to see if he makes the toruing squad ahead of Burns. That would probably signify Burns being very much out in the cold.

didn't Slade play 12 for the Saxons with Burns stayng at 10?

 

[Patchey]

Ford being in the England squad now, is a direct result of him missing that 2012 SA tour. Lancaster and co put him on a physical development program to get him bulked up without losing his mobility etc... he wasn't really getting game time for Tigers but things like his defence etc... have come up because of that summer doing not much toher than lifting weights and sprint work.

I agree he shouldn't have been on the tour, he was too young and, more importantly, too light to go up against South Africa. It would have been another 'Matt Tait' style debut.

However I think its a bit simplistic to say he's in the squad now because of his bulking up. He increased his weight slightly over that summer but at Leicester the next season he was out of form and still not defending very well. I'd argue whatever he was doing this summer just gone at Bath had more of an impact. He's still small for a professional rugby player but he seems to have got his attacking mojo back and if reliable in defense.


Slade played 12 when Hill was knocked out I belive.

 

[goodNumber10]

I agree he shouldn't have been on the tour, he was too young and, more importantly, too light to go up against South Africa. It would have been another 'Matt Tait' style debut.

However I think its a bit simplistic to say he's in the squad now because of his bulking up. He increased his weight slightly over that summer but at Leicester the next season he was out of form and still not defending very well. I'd argue whatever he was doing this summer just gone at Bath had more of an impact. He's still small for a professional rugby player but he seems to have got his attacking mojo back and if reliable in defense.


Slade played 12 when Hill was knocked out I belive.

I'm not sure he really got enough game time at tigers to tell if he was in or out of form - seem to recall he ahd a few MOM games whilst flood was away.

I'm not putting his current form down to his bulking up, but his defence has cwertainly benefited from it.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah, I've never bought into the idea that Ford was out of form.
He was getting 5-10 minute cameos at the end of games, and looked pretty good for a 19 year old.
The only thing that dipped was his goal kicking.

 

[B10]

On the subject of May/Nowell...

I've been impressed with May in a England shirt and have been a huge fan for a few years now but for me Nowell has made the bigger impression despite being less 'flashy'. He has made a couple of mistakes but for a 20 year old he looks so composed. In my opinion he's already looking like a test match animal for a wing. Yes he will need to add a few tries to his game when Wade starts knocking down the door again but the basis is there for a long career at international level and Lancaster seems to love him.

Overall things are looking great on the wings for us. Yarde/May compete for left wing. Wade/Nowell compete for right wing. Brown/Foden/Nowell compete for full back. With players like Watson, Daly and Rokoduguni waiting for a chance too!

 

[Patchey]

Yeah, I've never bought into the idea that Ford was out of form.
He was getting 5-10 minute cameos at the end of games, and looked pretty good for a 19 year old.
The only thing that dipped was his goal kicking.

I'll agree that his consistent cameos neither gave him enough time to develop or for us to really tell how well he was playing. However when Flood was injured or away, he looked poor starting in his place.

Also, while bulking up is going to help your defense, it's more important to work on the basics of tackling and positioning IMO. Look at Ashton, he's well built for a winger but can't defend at all.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'll agree that his consistent cameos neither gave him enough time to develop or for us to really tell how well he was playing. However when Flood was injured or away, he looked poor starting in his place.

Also, while bulking up is going to help your defense, it's more important to work on the basics of tackling and positioning IMO. Look at Ashton, he's well built for a winger but can't defend at all.

no offence, but I think you're putting words where there weren't any.

Technique and Mentality is 90% of the thing but being solid enough to do what your asking your body to do will help. For example he won't get dragged backwards and having the power to follow through on a hit, or even hold onto the legs to stop them running is important and will help with injury prevention and management, ease his recovery periods and so on... the point is it all leads to a more complete player.

 

[Patchey]

no offence, but I think you're putting words where there weren't any.

Technique and Mentality is 90% of the thing but being solid enough to do what your asking your body to do will help. For example he won't get dragged backwards and having the power to follow through on a hit, or even hold onto the legs to stop them running is important and will help with injury prevention and management, ease his recovery periods and so on... the point is it all leads to a more complete player.

None taken! I defiantly agree that bulking up will make a small player a better tackler. There is the physics of it as you mention and the confidence of going into a tackle with more bulk behind you.

I think we differ on when it was Ford really improved. I don't remember seeing any drastic changes after the summer of 2012. Certainly nothing compared to his improvement after his 2013 pre-season with Bath. To me that suggests that while the Tigers S&C team may have bulked him up, someone forgot to work on his skills and he stagnated and lost confidence. Whatever Bath did with him last summers seems to have been more productive.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it's really going to be interesting when we have our players fit again to see the selection choices Lancaster makes. I don't think we've ever had so many options and centre and back. I want to see alternatives to Care, Brown and Farrell get some game time. All playing very well but we can't risk them being the only ones in their position without potential good replacements if there is an injury. On the whole I think a lot of our first team are going to find their positions are a lot less secure.

Personally I'd like to see Lancaster develop different combinations to allow us to play drastically different gameplans if we need to. Wales are notorious for having 1 gameplan and can't change it if they get found out. Imagine if we could switch from crashball centres to distributing centres, territory flyhalf game to a more running game, fast and agile winger or more powerful wingers. If we can basically work on the ability to field 2 radically different teams with the game changing due to subs if needs be, we could be in a strong position.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Scrumhalf is definitely the biggest worry.
Lose Brown and you can bring in Foden, an experienced top class player, or switch Nowell to 15, or bring in the inexperienced Watson.
Lose Faz and you can bring in the inexperienced Ford, who has been tearing in up in the prem or Myler, who is pretty average but consistent and I'd back him to do a job, or Cipriani who has some experience internationally and has found form and consistency.
Lose Care and you've got Dickson who is very average, Wigglesworth who is experienced and consistent but a very different player and Youngs who is mostly poor (internationally), and then. I think Care is arguably our most important back, as his speed of delivery and decision making really brings our backs into the game - lose him and our whole backs game will suffer. Think Robson needs to tour in the Summer, get him some time vs Crusaders or something. Shame Fowles has missed the majority of this season at Sale, he could well have been up there with Robson by now - looked incredibly promising last season.

 

[j'nuh]

Lancaster quoted as saying:

"George has great potential and opportunities will come his way. I've pencilled in at least one game he's definitely going to start, if not two. His chance will come."

Although he also says that he won't be starting against Italy. Still, looks like Ford will be getting some game time before long. Looking forward to this!

 

[goodNumber10]

None taken! I defiantly agree that bulking up will make a small player a better tackler. There is the physics of it as you mention and the confidence of going into a tackle with more bulk behind you.

I think we differ on when it was Ford really improved. I don't remember seeing any drastic changes after the summer of 2012. Certainly nothing compared to his improvement after his 2013 pre-season with Bath. To me that suggests that while the Tigers S&C team may have bulked him up, someone forgot to work on his skills and he stagnated and lost confidence. Whatever Bath did with him last summers seems to have been more productive.

fair comments, i agree Tigers Ford vs Bath Ford is a very different player... i just meant that there has been an obvious progression course behind him getting to this point. I think Lancaster very early on identified him as a potential International player and they have all worked to this point.

This, i think, is one of lancasters best assets his ability to talent manage long term.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

23 for Italy has been narrowed down....

Same as last game....
But with Tuilagi in for Goode!

Also Mullan and Eastmond are travelling as 24th and 25th man.

This should signal the end of Goode for England!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Good management there by taking Kyle...

Will be interesting to see whether Manu gets brought in onto the wing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd be surprised if he did.
I think he'll come on for a winger but Burrell will move out there, as he's played a lot more wing than Tuilagi.

 

[Peat]

I'd be surprised if he did.
I think he'll come on for a winger but Burrell will move out there, as he's played a lot more wing than Tuilagi.

Dunno man. Lancaster has been hinting heavily at seeing Tuilagi as a possible wing.

Makes quite a lot of sense in some ways, as you keep the distributors in midfield and then add the Manu threat.